My M9 is eating SD cards [MERGED}

[mawipingpong]

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My first digital camera from the late 90's felt sluggish when reviewing images on-screen and so does the M9. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't buy a DSLR, but you certainly cannot disagree when I say that the on-screen user experience of the 5D Mk2 is a lot zippier than the M9's.

One could try to argue that Leica is all about optics and mechanics, but a market-leading product cannot afford any weak points.

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[mawipingpong]

The fact that it is not even recognized by the computer points a finger at the card. Nearly all camera faults produce a card that can be read but contain 0Kb files, or is at least visible in the computer. I would concentrate on trying to read the crashed card if I were you, it may well be that your images are still there. A file restructuring by Disk Warrior (if you are on MAC) may well resurrect it.

This effect can also be seen on a card that has been ejected improperly, during file writing.

 

Two different types of SanDisk cards, bought from B&H and Adorama respectively clearly point one finger each at the camera.

I tried several tools today (among them Disk Warrior) and ultimately found that Disk Drill did the trick. I could restore nearly all of my photos and am now trying to reproduce the camera error.

[wlaidlaw]

There is a tool to check SD cards H2testw 1.4 – Gold Standard In Detecting USB Counterfeit Drives but for me, unfortunately Windows and Linux only.

 

Wilson

[k-hawinkler]

Yes, I hope so. I know that you and others feel that way. I just get frustrated logging on and reading so many post, and new threads, that revisit the same discussion and look for new excuses. OK, I'll stop reacting and ignore such posts. That is probably healthier....

 

BTW, I'm happy to help with testing protocol and testing. I think we need a simpler set of actions if you want significant numbers of participants. Maybe we should attack one set of topics at a time? Am I trying to make it too simple???

 

RM

 

 

Hi RM,

 

That's an excellent strategy. Please, stick with it or you will not have much time for anything else.

 

Thanks for your reply. I was hoping you would offer a helping hand (& more importantly brain) as you seem to have quite a bit of knowledge specific to our problem. So, I am really enthusiastically looking forward to jointly work with you on these issues. Of course, other folks are invited to join this effort as well.

 

 

I would like to solicit your timely help for 2 different tasks:

 

• Establishing a procedure for demonstrating that a memory cards works correctly with the tools available to M9 owners, namely M9, computer, card reader, memory cards, computer software. This would be useful in general and is an absolute necessity to avoid M9 intermittent test failure data getting invalidated by irrelevant external factors. In particular we need to demonstrate that the memory card

 

• can be correctly formatted, written upon and read from

• has a certain realizable storage capacity and read and write speed, that needs to be measured and documented

• and its M9 formatted directory structure with file names gets properly recorded and documented before testing the M9 with it.

 

This procedure should also document when a memory card fails this initial exam and is thus excluded from being used in the M9 testing.

 

This procedure needs to be worked out for PC, Mac, and probably Linux.

(Please, also note post http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/1781386-post516.html and

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/1781903-post534.html )

You have stated that you work with PC and Linux, IIRC. I certainly can help with the Mac aspects.

 

• Creating a linear file that contains all M9 menu settings, and shutter wheel and exposure wheel selections. This file also should record all other relevant parameters, such as memory card used, battery status, ambient temperature, etc. The linear file should also be used to record when any M9 settings get changed over time, such as the exposure wheel or ISO settings.

 

 

Each procedure section needs to be introduced with a principle statement, rationale, and issues and implications paragraph that also outlines the procedure itself. In this way we avoid belching out orders, but instead let folks know not only what to do, but also why, and what aspects of the actual testing need to be paid particular attention to.

 

I will be working on the actual M9 testing procedure itself. Once we have consensus on a complete testing procedure, we will post it for discussion on the forum. After that I will start a new thread with the procedure and we will asks folks to begin with testing and recording their results in that thread.

 

With regards to your question, we will follow Albert Einstein's maxim: "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." Good old Al knew a thing or two. We can't go wrong with that, I hope.

 

Please, let me know when you might have a first draft for me to look at. Many thanks.

 

Best, K-H.

[wlaidlaw]

I have sent another request to Andreas asking if he could pass on a request to the appropriate person at Leica for some guidance on this issue. No point in us all doing lots of work only for Leica to say "oh we know all about that and are working on a solution".

 

Wilson

[meino]

Just checked the dates. The first time I observed this problem was May 28, which was BEFORE the newest firmware. It was the first time using the newest 16GB Sandisk cards (Ultra SDHC) that I recently purchased, which is the same product as the older cards (about 1.5 years old) that I have, which have not given me any problems.

 

The new ones have a different layout on the card, but the specs seem to be the same in all respects.

 

I would like to test the process with both old and new cards and see if the old cards fail now, but as of today, they haven't given me any troubles, whereas the new ones do give me problems.

 

This was the reason earlier in the thread that I suggested that it may not be due to the firmware.

 

 

---Michael

 

I don't think that these cards are the same. I have the same problems with 2 versions of this Sandisk cards. 6 older that work perfect and 2 newer ones that give these problems. See:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/151902-trouble-new-sandisk-ultra-16gb-cards.html

 

I think that Sandisk has changed the architecture and implementatio n of these cards a year ago.

 

regards

Meino

[k-hawinkler]

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I have sent another request to Andreas asking if he could pass on a request to the appropriate person at Leica for some guidance on this issue. No point in us all doing lots of work only for Leica to say "oh we know all about that and are working on a solution".

 

Wilson

 

 

Hi Wilson,

 

Many thanks for asking Andreas again. True, I agree we shouldn't ask folks for large scale testing if Leica semi-officially or officially is acknowledging the problem and is working towards a solution.

 

However, I don't see any harm in getting the testing procedure all worked out and ready to go, just in case it's needed. I don't mind the extra work. Somebody might even use it to better examine her/his memory cards and how they work in her/his M9. I know I will.

 

Thanks again.

 

Best, K-H.

[k-hawinkler]

I don't think that these cards are the same. I have the same problems with 2 versions of this Sandisk cards. 6 older that work perfect and 2 newer ones that give these problems. See:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/151902-trouble-new-sandisk-ultra-16gb-cards.html

 

I think that Sandisk has changed the architecture and implementatio n of these cards a year ago.

 

regards

Meino

 

 

Meino,

 

Many thanks indeed. Very interesting.

SanDisk making changes is not the issue for as long as they comply with the standard.

 

Best, K-H.

[wlaidlaw]

Andreas, the good chap that he is, has got straight back to me. He is going to speak to Jesko von Oeynhausen, the product manager for the M9, on this matter and will advise as soon as he has further news.

 

Wilson

[k-hawinkler]

Hi Wilson,

 

Splendid. Thanks to both of you.

 

Best, K-H.

[k-hawinkler]

Hi Wilson,

 

Many thanks for asking Andreas again. True, I agree we shouldn't ask folks for large scale testing if Leica semi-officially or officially is acknowledging the problem and is working towards a solution.

 

However, I don't see any harm in getting the testing procedure all worked out and ready to go, just in case it's needed. I don't mind the extra work. Somebody might even use it to better examine her/his memory cards and how they work in her/his M9. I know I will.

 

Thanks again.

 

Best, K-H.

 

 

One more thought. If Leica is indeed working on this problem and plans to come out with a firmware fix soon it would be in their best interest to engage again in a beta testing effort this community - albeit a different section, namely those especially adapt with computers.

 

In case this happens, a rigorous testing procedure would be of value - whether provided by Leica or us.

 

Best, K-H.

[wlaidlaw]

K-H,

 

I think it is fair to remember that SD card compatibility was not on the list of things we were looking for on the beta software, hence a testing methodology which may well not have produced the circumstances that lead to SD read/write/corrupt issue. The beta testing was very focussed on lens correction, white balance, Italian flag and vignetting.

 

I have my own personal idea on what might be causing the issue and that is voltage delivery/regulation to the read/write SD card module. Although there is an SD card standard stipulated voltage of 3.3 volts (with a step down on SDHC and XC cards to 1.8 volts on a specific command) I am sure that the susceptibility of various makes/specs of cards to error, if the voltage drops, varies from manufacturer to manufacturer and from model to model from the same manufacturer.

 

The only time the issue has happened to me, my battery was at around 40% and I was shooting on continuous DNG and JPEG. Now these are exactly the circumstances that could put a strain on voltage regulation inside the M9. Now if the new firmware has also increased the processing load to provide additional lens correction, this is another cause of battery drain.

 

Just a thought......

 

Wilson

[mjm6]

I don't think that these cards are the same. I have the same problems with 2 versions of this Sandisk cards. 6 older that work perfect and 2 newer ones that give these problems. See:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/151902-trouble-new-sandisk-ultra-16gb-cards.html

 

I think that Sandisk has changed the architecture and implementatio n of these cards a year ago.

 

regards

Meino

 

Meino,

 

That's somewhat my point. I originally speculated that the Sandisk cards changed very slightly in some specification. However, if the cards still meet the larger SDHC specification then the problem lies with Leica, not Sandisk (for not being fully compatible with the general SDHC specifications).

 

This is why I had stated that I didn't think this was an issue of the firmware, but more an issue of the card standards compatibility, of which we all know that Leica isn't fully up to speed, because otherwise there wouldn't be a list of 'good' cards that work well with Leica.

 

This is a very serious concern moving forward for me. If I purchase a camera like the M9, I want to know that the media available will be usable in the camera in the reasonable future. This camera is not even 2 years old, is still currently in production, and they don't seem to have written the software such that the camera can work properly with a subtle change in the SDHC cards as the generations of cards (within the specifications of SDHC) progress. I'm saying nothing about the newer SDXC cards, which will probably work fine in many current cameras, but certainly won't in the Leica.

 

It's a very frustrating and confidence-destroying process to realize that Leica simply doesn't have their electronics together to produce a robust product like the M9. What they produced is a somewhat unstable product in the context of the larger digital world, that will work 'just fine' if you don't deviate from the narrowly defined limits that they impose upon you. As time moves forward, that narrow definition will no longer exist, as we have seen in the introduction of new SDHC cards.

 

 

---Michael

[k-hawinkler]

K-H,

 

I think it is fair to remember that SD card compatibility was not on the list of things we were looking for on the beta software, hence a testing methodology which may well not have produced the circumstances that lead to SD read/write/corrupt issue. The beta testing was very focussed on lens correction, white balance, Italian flag and vignetting.

 

I have my own personal idea on what might be causing the issue and that is voltage delivery/regulation to the read/write SD card module. Although there is an SD card standard stipulated voltage of 3.3 volts (with a step down on SDHC and XC cards to 1.8 volts on a specific command) I am sure that the susceptibility of various makes/specs of cards to error, if the voltage drops, varies from manufacturer to manufacturer and from model to model from the same manufacturer.

 

The only time the issue has happened to me, my battery was at around 40% and I was shooting on continuous DNG and JPEG. Now these are exactly the circumstances that could put a strain on voltage regulation inside the M9. Now if the new firmware has also increased the processing load to provide additional lens correction, this is another cause of battery drain.

 

Just a thought......

 

Wilson

 

 

Hi Wilson,

 

I am very mindful of that. No Problem with me and I have not been critical of that effort that produced significant improvements in the targeted areas. Indeed thanks to everybody involved.

 

Voltage delivery/regulation may be a good hunch, although I have observed problems on my M9 with a pretty much full battery. My guess is there are probably several different issues interfering with each other. Maybe Leica knows, I sure don't.

 

Best, K-H.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

 

The only time the issue has happened to me, my battery was at around 40% and I was shooting on continuous DNG and JPEG. Now these are exactly the circumstances that could put a strain on voltage regulation inside the M9. Now if the new firmware has also increased the processing load to provide additional lens correction, this is another cause of battery drain.

{snipped}

 

I think you've got it: it wouldn't surprise me at all if power problems were at the root of the issue here. With larger capacity cards, people are perhaps less apt to change the battery and might lose shots when the power drops suddenly as it does with M9 batteries. Shooting DNG & JPEG would also increase the load FWIW. Add even a small software issue, or even the card's inability to update a very large FAT table (in a very large card) under low-voltage conditions and you've got a lot of problems waiting to happen.

 

It also explains another reason why I prefer those Panasonic Class 10 Gold cards; they have a power failure protection that allows them to remain unscrambled when power drops. FWIW, I have shot them till the battery is totally dead. I would never do that with my Sandisks... I religiously swapped the cards when the power was low (something I learned the M8 liked as well).

 

Anyway, I'm sure there is a problem (which doesn't get rid of the compounding problem of counterfeits in the slightest, btw) and the power issue fits the bill for all the anecdotal evidence I've read so far, and explains why issues are so intermittent.

 

Of course, only Leica has all the data... so it'll be interesting to see what they confirm.

[Robert_M]

K-H,

 

I think it is fair to remember that SD card compatibility was not on the list of things we were looking for on the beta software, hence a testing methodology which may well not have produced the circumstances that lead to SD read/write/corrupt issue. The beta testing was very focussed on lens correction, white balance, Italian flag and vignetting.

 

I have my own personal idea on what might be causing the issue and that is voltage delivery/regulation to the read/write SD card module. Although there is an SD card standard stipulated voltage of 3.3 volts (with a step down on SDHC and XC cards to 1.8 volts on a specific command) I am sure that the susceptibility of various makes/specs of cards to error, if the voltage drops, varies from manufacturer to manufacturer and from model to model from the same manufacturer.

 

The only time the issue has happened to me, my battery was at around 40% and I was shooting on continuous DNG and JPEG. Now these are exactly the circumstances that could put a strain on voltage regulation inside the M9. Now if the new firmware has also increased the processing load to provide additional lens correction, this is another cause of battery drain.

 

Just a thought......

 

Wilson

 

 

Yes, these are interesting points and ideas. Would make sense. Often, there is less power consumed when the speed is slowed down. I don't know if that is built into SD card reading interfaces like it is with computer main processors. Has anyone noticed if the write speed to the card seems slower when the battery is lower or stressed? I imagine that is hard to notice. Just another random though you provoked....

 

RM

[mjm6]

Anyway, I'm sure there is a problem (which doesn't get rid of the compounding problem of counterfeits in the slightest, btw) and the power issue fits the bill for all the anecdotal evidence I've read so far, and explains why issues are so intermittent.

 

Of course, only Leica has all the data... so it'll be interesting to see what they confirm.

 

You're trying to blame the user for what is looking more and more like a programming issue.

 

In my case, at the times that I have had the failures, the batteries were fresh and reporting 100%.

[k-hawinkler]

I think you've got it: it wouldn't surprise me at all if power problems were at the root of the issue here. With larger capacity cards, people are perhaps less apt to change the battery and might lose shots when the power drops suddenly as it does with M9 batteries. Shooting DNG & JPEG would also increase the load FWIW. Add even a small software issue, or even the card's inability to update a very large FAT table (in a very large card) under low-voltage conditions and you've got a lot of problems waiting to happen.

 

It also explains another reason why I prefer those Panasonic Class 10 Gold cards; they have a power failure protection that allows them to remain unscrambled when power drops. FWIW, I have shot them till the battery is totally dead. I would never do that with my Sandisks... I religiously swapped the cards when the power was low (something I learned the M8 liked as well).

 

Anyway, I'm sure there is a problem (which doesn't get rid of the compounding problem of counterfeits in the slightest, btw) and the power issue fits the bill for all the anecdotal evidence I've read so far, and explains why issues are so intermittent.

 

Of course, only Leica has all the data... so it'll be interesting to see what they confirm.

 

 

Hi James,

 

That's a great post. I very much appreciate it.

I am getting my order in right now to B&H to buy a Panasonic RP-SDU16GU1K 16GB / 10 to 90 MB/sec Transfer Rate / UHS-I.

That card should work, right?

Many thanks.

 

Best, K-H.

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[Jamie Roberts]

Hi James,

 

That's a great post. I very much appreciate it.

I am getting my order in right now to B&H to buy a Panasonic RP-SDU16GU1K 16GB / 10 to 90 MB/sec Transfer Rate / UHS-I.

That card should work, right?

Many thanks.

 

Best, K-H.

 

Well

 

I would go with the 8GB cards--that's what I use--but that's also because I'm nervous... especially until Leica tells us what's going on... But I have had great success with those cards.

 

It'll be interesting to see how they work for you. I do think they're great in the M9.

[Jamie Roberts]

You're trying to blame the user for what is looking more and more like a programming issue.

 

In my case, at the times that I have had the failures, the batteries were fresh and reporting 100%.

 

No, I'm not trying to blame the user in the slightest!

 

You *should* be able to run the battery into the ground and not lose a shot. That would be my design point, if I were leading the design team producing the M9. The camera shouldn't let you take a picture if the system is in a state where it can't complete a write sequence.

 

Interesting on the fresh batteries. That points more to a software issue, you're right. Of course, low power and processing overhead combined with a programming glitch could easily compound the issue, and then you have another scenario.

 

Of course, too--your situation may be an outlier as well. We're all speaking anecdotally (except on the counterfeiting, which is well-documented)... If this has happened many times to you, and you can reproduce it, you should be sending your camera to Leica.

 

As I said, only Leica has all the data.