Passing on the M3 torch

[kintamasan]

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My aunt recently passed her beloved 1956 vintage M3 s/n 817-*** with type 1 Summicron 5cm f2 lens to me, the only photographer in our family. I am truly blessed to have an excellent condition 3rd year production M3. The lens is free from haze and fungus but, the coating on the front element has seen better days. The camera was stored in the ready case without a lens filter or cap!! I would like to keep this type 1 Summicron for posterity but, purchase a type 2 rigid or type 3 DR to shoot with. I would like to know if anyone has a preference between these two variants.

 

I purchased both an Elmarit 90mm f2.8 and Elmar 135mm f4 to go along with my setup. I was also thinking about adding a Summiron 35mm f3.5 or f2.8 at a later date. Any opinion on these lenses would be greatly appreciated as well.

 

Thank you,

Ken Thomas

[someonenameddavid]

From my reading of the wise men on this group, I am led to believe that the rigid and DR Summicrons are optically the same. The DR is more sought after because it is cool with those goggles. The 35s are not so cool with those goggles. I have a 3.5 summaron and I wish I had waited and saved more for a 2.8 partly because the mechanism for the goggle removal is a point of weakness and wear on the 3.5, but not on the 2.8. Better to save up and buy a nice user M2 with a 35 without goggles..... And that's how you get sucked into Leica-land.... You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave. (You know that you have arrived when you say to your spouse "You never sell Leica equipment")

[aesop]

...congratulations on your acquisition and welcome to the forum, Ken. Re: the 35mm lens, I have no specific information to impart, but would encourage you to type "Summicron 35" (or something similar) into the search field on the home page. Using the search facility in this way enables you to access existing threads which include reams of valuable information on your chosen subject.

 

Again, welcome to the forum - here's to many years of input from you.

[Xmas]

Hi

 

Welcome, this is a friendly forum but do not expect a uniform opine on any thing Leica.

 

The type III 5cm cron is just as good or better than the type IV, detecting the difference is real difficult. The Type II is between the type I and type III, you might detect the difference if you shoot brick walls and use a loope on 20-16 inch silver bromides - most people dont bother doing this. The Type III will flare less.

 

Lots of people use the early single coated lenses, they will pastel colors, like the French water color schools, and reduce contrast.

 

The summaron f/3.5 and f/2.8 are real nice lenses but the goggles are bulky and dont improve the viewfinder image, the f/2.8 will match the latest 35mms on performance. However it will fog and needs to be cleaned ASAP if fog is detected, flashlight through lens in darkened room.

 

Any of the lenses need a hood cause they are single coated, you can get orignal or or 3rd party hoods.

 

If the front surface is badly scratched dont worry, but if is contiminated I'd send it for pro clean, few are intact, the coating and lens glass are well soft. Dont clean yourself, unless you are well patient. i.e. never clean yourself, avoid finger printing, leave a hood in place and filter is you are fussy. Bulb blower for dust, carefully.

 

Buy a cine reel of Kodak 5222 and half a dozen IXMOO, or use Ilford XP2 and mini lab scans. Acquire Uncles enlarger and dark room kit...

 

Noel

[lars_bergquist]

The first Summaron brought out with a M mount was goggle-less. The goggles version arrived a couple of years later. Pros never liked the goggles; they tended to use a straight Summaron or Summicron on their M3 cameras, with the appropriate accessory finder (SBLOO). So can you.

 

The old man from the Age of the 3.5cm Elmar

[Xmas]

Hi Lars

 

Castor oil style medicine...

I use the full field of view of the rangefinder, most of time.

 

Noel

[jpattison]

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purchase a type 2 rigid or type 3 DR to shoot with. I would like to know if anyone has a preference between these two variants.

Thank you,

Ken Thomas

 

Hi Ken, the first rigid 50mm Summicron and the D/R Summicron are both Type 2. So it's down to whether you want to focus closer with the D/R. The type 2 has a legendary "perfection" in it's balance of contrast vs sharpness. Ideal for B&W film, and nice on digital, too.

 

http://www.antiquecameras.net/50summicronmlenses.html

 

John

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

 

Welcome Ken & David.

 

M3's are fully modern M's minus meters which handle focussing & viewing w/ 50, 90 & 135 lenses better than any other M which came after including today's MP, M7 & digital M's. All the current & past M lenses are here for you to choose from w/ an M3. The only limitation is viewfinder frames. Accessory viewfinders in the wider focal lengths & 75mm are available. W/ an accessory viewfinder the rangefinder remains unsurpassed. The goggles for a 35 reduce the .91 magnification to .6 which is still quite do able since the lens involved is a 35.

 

When using a 50, 90 or 135mm lens the enlarged viewfinder coupled w/ a more accurate rangefinder w/ less flare than any other M is easier & more pleasant to use than any other M range/viewfinder for those focal lengths. The rest of the camera is pretty much the same as any other M except: 1. No BTL meter. 2. Loading is slower unless you get a Quick Load. The urban myth that Quick Loads are only for M1's, 2's & so forth but not 3's is a myth. I have used a Quick Load on an M3 since the 1970's w/ no problems. It has always worked fine since the first day w/ NO problems orienting the spool & is in as good condition as the rest of the camera.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[Xmas]

...The urban myth that Quick Loads are only for M1's, 2's & so forth but not 3's is a myth.

...

Michael

Hi Michael

 

The Quick load spool has a little chrome spool puller (only) for M3, never heared about this urban myth before you mentioned it. I'll look up the origonal box and instructions when I get a chance.

 

Noel

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Noel,

 

Thank you.

 

You still have your box? It was a little not very well made one w/ a single slip of diagramatic instructions. As I remember it didn't even have any written instructions. I think it came from an unnamed 3d party subcontractor who certainly built it to Leitz standards but as I remember the style of design of the layout of the sheet was not @ all Leitz like.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

 

BTW: For those reading this who have not yet figured out how to use a Quick Load w/ an M3: All you do after rewinding & removing the exposed film is pull said chrome knob out until the spool which replaces the original take up spool disengages. You will hear the same click you hear when the original spool is disengaged. You don't have to take the snail out any further unless you want to. Then put your right thumb into the space where the film comes out of the gate & into the opening in the Quick Load snail & GENTLY push the spool back onto the shaft until it stops. The spool is now aligned to take the film. Don't forget the little do-dad that attaches to the base plate & the diagram which covers the original instructions on the inside of the base plate. My diagram has never started to come up & looks like new today. The do-dad attached to the base plate is very handy for aligning the film more accurately & more quickly & has never loosened up. There is no worn away black from my thumb. Just make sure you push enough of the leader into the snail when loading the new film so it does not slip out when you begin to tension the shutter & pick up the slack while winding the first blank.

 

It's really a lot easier to do than it was for me to write all of this. But that is the idea. Quite Leitz like. Even if it was a 3d party subcontractor whose diagram was.....

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

 

P.S. I hear that urban myth every once & a while.

[kintamasan]

From my reading of the wise men on this group, I am led to believe that the rigid and DR Summicrons are optically the same. The DR is more sought after because it is cool with those goggles. The 35s are not so cool with those goggles. I have a 3.5 summaron and I wish I had waited and saved more for a 2.8 partly because the mechanism for the goggle removal is a point of weakness and wear on the 3.5, but not on the 2.8. Better to save up and buy a nice user M2 with a 35 without goggles..... And that's how you get sucked into Leica-land.... You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave. (You know that you have arrived when you say to your spouse "You never sell Leica equipment")

Thanks for the feedback!! Too late, I purchased a 35mm f3.5 Summaron from KEH yesterday. I will pickup a f2.8 or f2.0 at a later date but, for now, the f3.5 will be the one. The f3.5 was the only 35mm in 1956 for the M3, I belive that the others came around 1958. Yeah, your right, I'm hooked on the vintage Leica and already want to add another M3 single stroke or M4 to the kit at a later date.

[kintamasan]

Hi

 

Welcome, this is a friendly forum but do not expect a uniform opine on any thing Leica.

 

The type III 5cm cron is just as good or better than the type IV, detecting the difference is real difficult. The Type II is between the type I and type III, you might detect the difference if you shoot brick walls and use a loope on 20-16 inch silver bromides - most people dont bother doing this. The Type III will flare less.

 

Lots of people use the early single coated lenses, they will pastel colors, like the French water color schools, and reduce contrast.

 

The summaron f/3.5 and f/2.8 are real nice lenses but the goggles are bulky and dont improve the viewfinder image, the f/2.8 will match the latest 35mms on performance. However it will fog and needs to be cleaned ASAP if fog is detected, flashlight through lens in darkened room.

 

Any of the lenses need a hood cause they are single coated, you can get orignal or or 3rd party hoods.

 

If the front surface is badly scratched dont worry, but if is contiminated I'd send it for pro clean, few are intact, the coating and lens glass are well soft. Dont clean yourself, unless you are well patient. i.e. never clean yourself, avoid finger printing, leave a hood in place and filter is you are fussy. Bulb blower for dust, carefully.

 

Buy a cine reel of Kodak 5222 and half a dozen IXMOO, or use Ilford XP2 and mini lab scans. Acquire Uncles enlarger and dark room kit...

 

Noel

Thank you for the welcome and information. I have researched and lusted for Leica over the years and now I finally get to join in the fun. I like your discription on the single coat lens effects. It seems that the vintage lenses give a more artistic rendering than the modern counterparts. I guess this adds to the mystique over the clinical precision of the current versions. I purchased a f3.5 Summaron for the period kit of 1956 but, will purchase either f2.8 or f2.0 if the bug bites me.

[kintamasan]

Hi Ken, the first rigid 50mm Summicron and the D/R Summicron are both Type 2. So it's down to whether you want to focus closer with the D/R. The type 2 has a legendary "perfection" in it's balance of contrast vs sharpness. Ideal for B&W film, and nice on digital, too.

 

Leica 50mm Summicron Price and Information Guide

 

John

I guess that I can't go wrong with either lens. I think I might try for the rigid version Type 2.

[kintamasan]

Hello Everybody,

 

Welcome Ken & David.

 

M3's are fully modern M's minus meters which handle focussing & viewing w/ 50, 90 & 135 lenses better than any other M which came after including today's MP, M7 & digital M's. All the current & past M lenses are here for you to choose from w/ an M3. The only limitation is viewfinder frames. Accessory viewfinders in the wider focal lengths & 75mm are available. W/ an accessory viewfinder the rangefinder remains unsurpassed. The goggles for a 35 reduce the .91 magnification to .6 which is still quite do able since the lens involved is a 35.

 

When using a 50, 90 or 135mm lens the enlarged viewfinder coupled w/ a more accurate rangefinder w/ less flare than any other M is easier & more pleasant to use than any other M range/viewfinder for those focal lengths. The rest of the camera is pretty much the same as any other M except: 1. No BTL meter. 2. Loading is slower unless you get a Quick Load. The urban myth that Quick Loads are only for M1's, 2's & so forth but not 3's is a myth. I have used a Quick Load on an M3 since the 1970's w/ no problems. It has always worked fine since the first day w/ NO problems orienting the spool & is in as good condition as the rest of the camera.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Thank you so much for the welcome information!! I thought that I might add an M4 variant at a later date. It's looking like I might as well stick with the M3 and maybe add a late model single stroke to my kit and go have some fun.

[NZDavid]

M3 is a superb camera, enjoy! I would recommend a good condition 5cm Summicron Rigid. It will match your M3 perfectly and yield excellent results. I have used mine on the M3, M6, and M9, and it is still a goodie despite being older than me.

[Twotone]

I guess that I can't go wrong with either lens. I think I might try for the rigid version Type 2.

 

 

I bought a 1966 one in mint condition, a fabulous lens and easily the best single piece of camera equipment I've ever owned including the M3:D

[kintamasan]

M3 is a superb camera, enjoy! I would recommend a good condition 5cm Summicron Rigid. It will match your M3 perfectly and yield excellent results. I have used mine on the M3, M6, and M9, and it is still a goodie despite being older than me.

Thanks for your insite about the Summicron!! I was wondering what your view is between the M3 vs M4?? I would like to add a single stroke M3 variant to my kit but would like to experience the quick loading feature of the M4. I know that I'd take a hit on viewfinder magnificatiion but I've read that Leitz used a better glue in the range finder of the M4 that makes it more durable than the resin glue found in the M3.

[NZDavid]

There are quite a few differences between the M3 and M4: quickloading system, framelines for lenses from 35 to 135, and the canted rewind lever. Both cameras have the reputation for excellent construction. Personally, I don't mind taking the cassette out to load, it just takes a further few seconds. I also don't mind separate viewfinders for wide angle lenses; some do. Rangefinders can be replaced. (Sherry Krauter has a good reputation for servicing and restoring.) I would make sure the M3 is in tip top condition, and invest in a CLA if necessary. It's camera with a family history, after all. Then possibly invest in some more glass. Have fun!