jonoslack Posted June 23, 2011 Share #81 Posted June 23, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) True... me too leave 50 on the shelf from the very first times of M8 usage... but I think it must be considered that the envisioned camera we are speaking of would surely will be equipped with a (some ?) proprietary AF lens(es ? zoom ?)... the capability to use M lenses being a nice addon just for appealing Leica users... and they tipically have a number of focals, and many of them are "accustomed" to the M8 format We Know Ways of getting your 50 off the shelf;) However, I quite agree - they've said that this is a distinct system, so I'm quite sure it's intent is to have it's own range of AF lenses including zooms, and that these lenses won't be compatable with the M system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 Hi jonoslack, Take a look here Compact interchangeable lens camera coming 09/12. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
stunsworth Posted June 23, 2011 Share #82 Posted June 23, 2011 Does anyone think this will have manual focus properly implemented? No one (outside of Leica) has more than a very basic outline of what the system will be like. 99% of what you read for the next 12-15 months is likely to be nothing more than speculation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidE Posted June 23, 2011 Share #83 Posted June 23, 2011 Hi, Exciting stuff ! Slightly off topic ..... Round 1 Having bored my wife every day eulogising about my Digilux 2 today over coffee I told her the good news about the possible successor. Round 2 In reply my wife surprised me saying " That sounds wonderful. You can have one of the new cameras for your birthday." Round 3 Then added "For your 70th birthday. Time for you to save to buy the camera " I'm 65 year old ! Game, set and match David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted June 23, 2011 Share #84 Posted June 23, 2011 Put an X1 and X100 into a pot and stir, add an interchangeable lens mount into the mix and blend. Sounds like an interesting recipe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40mm f/2 Posted June 23, 2011 Share #85 Posted June 23, 2011 Since the introduction of the Fuji X-100 the idea of built-in electronic viewfinders is becoming accepted more widely. If this is what Leica is doing I would be very interested- their CEO Alfred Schopf came from Arri which has a lot of experience with that. A display on the back of the camera is for me only useful when the camera is on a tripod (and then it should be articulated). Will it have autofocus? A moveable sensor system could be also used with M/R lenses for fine focus. I guess if the quality of the viewfinder is high enough that may be not necessary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted June 23, 2011 Share #86 Posted June 23, 2011 Will it have autofocus? They didn’t say so but AF is taken for granted. Also that it won’t be of the moving sensor type. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 23, 2011 Share #87 Posted June 23, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) We Know Ways of getting your 50 off the shelf However, I quite agree - they've said that this is a distinct system, so I'm quite sure it's intent is to have it's own range of AF lenses including zooms, and that these lenses won't be compatable with the M system. ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted June 23, 2011 Share #88 Posted June 23, 2011 Hi,Exciting stuff ! Slightly off topic ..... Round 1 Having bored my wife every day eulogising about my Digilux 2 today over coffee I told her the good news about the possible successor. Round 2 In reply my wife surprised me saying " That sounds wonderful. You can have one of the new cameras for your birthday." Round 3 Then added "For your 70th birthday. Time for you to save to buy the camera " I'm 65 year old ! Game, set and match David Lets have reality check, Photokina 2012 sounds to good to be true so it may as well be launched in time for your 70th. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted June 23, 2011 Share #89 Posted June 23, 2011 Since the introduction of the Fuji X-100 the idea of built-in electronic viewfinders is becoming accepted more widely. If this is what Leica is doing I would be very interested- their CEO Alfred Schopf came from Arri which has a lot of experience with that. A display on the back of the camera is for me only useful when the camera is on a tripod (and then it should be articulated).Will it have autofocus? A moveable sensor system could be also used with M/R lenses for fine focus. I guess if the quality of the viewfinder is high enough that may be not necessary. Built in EVF is nothing new, X100 is only first to combine RF with EVF. For Leica show stopper is, lack of, EVF of adequate quality to emulate optical finders sufficiently to support manual focus lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reading Posted June 23, 2011 Share #90 Posted June 23, 2011 Bigger will always mean better when it comes to sensors but todays point and shoots are often better than early Phase One backs for medium format cameras. There is every reason to expect future APS-Cs to be as good as medium format sensors are today. So I think this is the right move for Leica. A digital R is not going to be needed nor the large SLR SLR Nikon and Canons. I believe future cameras based around ASP-C sensors will provide all the quality we will ever need and we will gain from nice neat compact cameras and lenses. I don't have any problems with the EVF on my Digilux 2, so with todays resolution etc I do not see any need to have a mirror bases system at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40mm f/2 Posted June 23, 2011 Share #91 Posted June 23, 2011 Built in EVF is nothing new, X100 is only first to combine RF with EVF. For Leica show stopper is, lack of, EVF of adequate quality to emulate optical finders sufficiently to support manual focus lenses. I only said that the X-100 made the built in EVF concept more widely accepted. Also it is not a real RF (Messucher) as it does not measure distance (otherwise I would want the X-100). EVL are used in digital motion cameras since the hint to Arriflex. One thing I did not understand in both articles is why the type of viewer is dependent on the sensor used -assuming it has to be some CMOS anyhow to make live view with reasonable refresh rate possible. Leica has used for its system cameras only Kodak sensors- but looking at the financial health of that supplier Leica may need another source anyhow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterv Posted June 23, 2011 Share #92 Posted June 23, 2011 Some have said that the X1 lens is built in Asia and leica just needs to develop a range of lenses built to that quality, not quite the M-lenses quality but pretty good enough for many. Why is that? I think if Leica wants to stand out in the mirrorless crowd, they NEED to make the lenses for their new system better than the M-line. As things stand now, photographers would buy a Leica mirrorless for the glass, not the electronics. The new lenses will have an excellent selling point if they yield very high resolution which would make them future proof, anticipating the 50 - 100 MP sensors that could very well be available in the near future. (please don't start another I don't need xxx MP discussion) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted June 23, 2011 Share #93 Posted June 23, 2011 I think you are right in the direction of your thinking. This is a critical step for Leica in terms of leapfrogging the competition and again becoming the lead dog of the small, highest quality camera in the hands of professionals. It could, if done right, and that's a big if, blow out the dslr world. Just as Leica has become hostage to M rangefinders and has been trying to redevelop the cameras to fit into the current world, so too are Nikon and Canon hostage to their SLR vision off of which they built themselves. A mirrorless Leica could be a game changer IF .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted June 23, 2011 Share #94 Posted June 23, 2011 I only said that the X-100 made the built in EVF concept more widely accepted. Also it is not a real RF (Messucher) as it does not measure distance (otherwise I would want the X-100). EVL are used in digital motion cameras since the hint to Arriflex. One thing I did not understand in both articles is why the type of viewer is dependent on the sensor used -assuming it has to be some CMOS anyhow to make live view with reasonable refresh rate possible. Leica has used for its system cameras only Kodak sensors- but looking at the financial health of that supplier Leica may need another source anyhow. I seen your reference to ARRI, I know, seen ENG cameras fitted with B&W EVF back in early 1980s. Have you seen Panasonic's early mirrorless micro 4/3 camera, i think it is G1, excellent EVF, only it is mini DSLR shape not RF style. As for CMOS vs CCD I am technical but not that technical (google/wiki could provide in depth information better than I could). Lets just say that CMOS sensors support live view (& EVF) while CCD's don't. Leica's X1 is fitted with CMOS as it is designed with rear LCD for framing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted June 23, 2011 Share #95 Posted June 23, 2011 I think if Leica wants to stand out in the mirrorless crowd, they NEED to make the lenses for their new system better than the M-line. In that case the lenses would be even more costly than M lenses are now, and also more difficult to manufacture – i.e. the output would be even lower. What’s the use of a system that “stands out in the mirrorless crowd” if most of the people craving for it couldn’t afford it, and even if they could they would have to wait months or years for their lenses? That’s no way to compete in the mirrorless market. Leica has already got two expensive high-end systems to cater for; there is no way they could manufacture still a third line of lenses in Solms (or Wetzlar). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted June 23, 2011 Share #96 Posted June 23, 2011 Why is that? I think if Leica wants to stand out in the mirrorless crowd, they NEED to make the lenses for their new system better than the M-line. As things stand now, photographers would buy a Leica mirrorless for the glass, not the electronics. The new lenses will have an excellent selling point if they yield very high resolution which would make them future proof, anticipating the 50 - 100 MP sensors that could very well be available in the near future. (please don't start another I don't need xxx MP discussion) 50-100MP with current (Bayer) sensor technology on 24x36mm sensor is tall order, especially if high ISO performance is required. There is limit imposed by fundamental physics how many photosites can be squeezed onto the sensor before noise (signal to noise ratio) ruins the image. Any onboard processing to reduce/mask effects of noise on dense packed sensors only turns mushy images (I want mention well known maker of EOS cameras). Article in this link tells it all http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/downloadable_2/Physical_Limits_2.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 23, 2011 Share #97 Posted June 23, 2011 I think if Leica wants to stand out in the mirrorless crowd, they NEED to make the lenses for their new system better than the M-line. As things stand now, photographers would buy a Leica mirrorless for the glass, not the electronics. Not sure the mirrorless crown would be prepared to pay several thousands of Euros for the privilege though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterv Posted June 23, 2011 Share #98 Posted June 23, 2011 In that case the lenses would be even more costly than M lenses are now, and also more difficult to manufacture – i.e. the output would be even lower. IF they decide to use the same production methods, yes, of course you're right. What’s the use of a system that “stands out in the mirrorless crowd” if most of the people craving for it couldn’t afford it, and even if they could they would have to wait months or years for their lenses? That’s no way to compete in the mirrorless market. That depends on who they will be making this camera system for. Besides, that is exactly what's happening now with the M and S. Nevertheless people accept that they have to wait a long time for the quality they demand. I'm merely suggesting that Leica makes this a special mirrorless. Their strength lies in their optics. If this will be another relatively expensive 'me too' mirrorless system they may sell to the usual dentist/lawyers and make a nice profit, but what would this add to the community of working photographers who are looking for a smaller, lighter, less obtrusive, modern camera with high quality future proof optics? (like the M lenses proved to be) They like to be associated with Magnum et all. Let's see this is not just marketing spin. I'd like the present generation working with Leica to bring something with equivelant significance to the photographic community as the M their fathers and grandfathers gave us. I think this moment in photographic history is a unique oppertunity for Leica to regain some of the reputation that they created with the M (and the Barnack before that) in the fifties. The M wasn't exactly cheap at that time, but it was small and innovative. If they'd made the M lenses good enough for the film stock that was available back then, where would the M line be now? Leica has already got two expensive high-end systems to cater for; there is no way they could manufacture still a third line of lenses in Solms (or Wetzlar). I agree, it's difficult enough as it is right now... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterv Posted June 23, 2011 Share #99 Posted June 23, 2011 Not sure the mirrorless crown would be prepared to pay several thousands of Euros for the privilege though. Fine, they can buy a M4:3, a NEX or whatever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterv Posted June 23, 2011 Share #100 Posted June 23, 2011 50-100MP with current (Bayer) sensor technology on 24x36mm sensor is tall order, especially if high ISO performance is required. There is limit imposed by fundamental physics how many photosites can be squeezed onto the sensor before noise (signal to noise ratio) ruins the image. Any onboard processing to reduce/mask effects of noise on dense packed sensors only turns mushy images (I want mention well known maker of EOS cameras). Article in this link tells it all http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/downloadable_2/Physical_Limits_2.pdf Ohhh, this line of thinking is soooooooooooo 2010. More pixels will come, pixel pitch will get smaller, and noise will get less and less. Diffraction is something else though... But that's why we need excellent Leica optics. Anyway, like I wrote above: (please don't start another I don't need xxx MP discussion) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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