pgk Posted July 6, 2011 Share #141 Posted July 6, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Must say I get tired of the ritual knocking of what is a perfectly good digital camera. Its not as if all the 'issues' aired here have not been discussed ad nauseum already. Whilst I sympathise with the OP, I have to say, based on his ('bad') M8 experience, short time period between buying and using the camera and his problems with existing and known factors (battery capacity, frameline distance optimisation, requirement to shoot raw for best image quality), I wonder why he thought the M9 to be the camera for the job? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 Hi pgk, Take a look here M9 in the Field.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
plasticman Posted July 6, 2011 Share #142 Posted July 6, 2011 Its not as if all the 'issues' aired here have not been discussed ad nauseum already. Whilst I sympathise with the OP, I have to say, based on his ('bad') M8 experience, short time period between buying and using the camera and his problems with existing and known factors (battery capacity, frameline distance optimisation, requirement to shoot raw for best image quality), I wonder why he thought the M9 to be the camera for the job? In this case I have to say I was referring to thrid's post, as I don't feel I'm in any way qualified to criticize an accomplished photojournalist working in dangerous and critical conditions such as the OP. Not meaning to refer to your post here at all, but in general I find that for a lot of people attacking the OP for critiquing the M9, the nearest they've been to a war-zone was when they said to their wife that they were contemplating a Noctilux 0,95. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 6, 2011 Share #143 Posted July 6, 2011 Depends on what you are commenting on and the contents of the comment, Mani. The only jobs on the planet that I can think of that put one above all criticsm are the Pope and the presidency of Zimbabwe.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WigglePig Posted July 6, 2011 Share #144 Posted July 6, 2011 Wow. How did this thread get so off-topic and pointless in only 8 pages? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted July 6, 2011 Share #145 Posted July 6, 2011 Wow. How did this thread get so off-topic and pointless in only 8 pages? actually it started pretty pointlessly but one assumes that folk are posting as they can't get out to shoot Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted July 6, 2011 Share #146 Posted July 6, 2011 Hmm... Pros choose to make their living with photography, amateurs choose to make their living through something else. I have seen work from amateurs that is to the very highest standard. Equally I have seen work from pros that I would use for the lining of the cat's litter tray. "Pro" and "Amateur" are labels of convenience. Pro status does not confer an automatic right to be right, any more than "Amateur" confers an automatic right to be wrong. We all put our trousers ("pants") on one leg at a time and we all have an equal ability to say and do stupid things, including buying the wrong camera for our needs and suffering buyers' remorse. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 6, 2011 Share #147 Posted July 6, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Couple of points: - HCB (I wondered how long it would take before he made his mandatory LUF appearance) used an external finder for accurate framing*; - up to everyone to decide who and what they feel qualified to criticize. When I read posts like the one by the OP, then I respect that his experience, working in a situation where he is in constant danger of being killed, is more worthwhile in my view than armchair experts or cat-portraitists complaining about waiting-time for some expensive lens (or designer watch, for that matter). Just my pov. *at least in his early work Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 6, 2011 Share #148 Posted July 6, 2011 External finders do not give accurate framing of an image - but again an irrelevance Sorry but I am no armchair expert and being well qualified to, I do feel able to comment on the OP's original posting !!! As you say, an irrelevance to the discussion really - but afaik the finder that HCB used was a VIDOM(?) which has parallax correction with distance settings, and is therefore pretty accurate (in the right hands). Others can judge for themselves whether they feel qualified to criticize the original posting. I felt a lot of the points were well-made and, as I said, using a camera in the firing line is a more strenuous test of any equipment than most of us here have experienced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted July 6, 2011 Share #149 Posted July 6, 2011 - up to everyone to decide who and what they feel qualified to criticize. When I read posts like the one by the OP, then I respect that his experience, working in a situation where he is in constant danger of being killed, is more worthwhile in my view than armchair experts or cat-portraitists complaining about waiting-time for some expensive lens (or designer watch, for that matter). I take offence, as do many other people, in being told non-pros just take pictures of cats (I don't have one BTW), and anyone who is a pro knows everything and can't be critised on any word. I also don't take pictures from an armchair! sorry, I don't care whether he is in danger of being killed or not We are talking photography. Going to do a serious assignment without (i) testing the kit, (ii) practising with the kit to see if the style is right, (iii) not reading whats clearly available on the web about the type of SD cards to use, battery life (stated clearly by Leica), etc. is still a mistake We would all like a 460k or 920k LCD, we would all like a faster cpu and a bigger buffer, so what. I am sure Leica will improve version after version. It is what it is, and its the best camera I have used to date for my style of photography Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted July 6, 2011 Share #150 Posted July 6, 2011 I take offence, as do many other people, in being told non-pros just take pictures of cats (I don't have one BTW), and anyone who is a pro knows everything and can't be critised on any word. I also don't take pictures from an armchair! sorry, I don't care whether he is in danger of being killed or not We are talking photography. Going to do a serious assignment without (i) testing the kit, (ii) practising with the kit to see if the style is right, (iii) not reading whats clearly available on the web about the type of SD cards to use, battery life (stated clearly by Leica), etc. is still a mistake We would all like a 460k or 920k LCD, we would all like a faster cpu and a bigger buffer, so what. I am sure Leica will improve version after version. It is what it is, and its the best camera I have used to date for my style of photography I sometimes shoot cats and I'm an amateur. I haven't taken any offence so far, maybe I'm more comfortable in my own position in the photography pecking order? I sure haven't won any awards. I'm certainly not bettering the very society within which I comfortably live by documenting the needless death and destruction of our, and other nations young men and women. That being said if I were to want someone to field test the camera I buy and provide feedback to the company I bought it from. I as a consumer would rather that person be an award winning professional photographer than someone as amateur as myself. My feedback is next to useless, even if it is applicable to me. "It's fine, when the cat hops onto my lap I snap a shot in A mode with auto ISO and it usually looks nice. No need for improvement here, leave it as it is is my advice." To quote the company themsleves; "It can be a profound action, taking a photograph. It's a piece of realisation. The preservation of a fleeting expression. A recording, even, of the precise moment the world changed. But what if your camera's action is less than precise, less than perfectly responsive? The consequence could be profound, too. The moment could escape." Indeed. I contend that Leica want the M series cameras to be class leading photojournalistic tools, used in the toughest situations and still capable of creating the most compelling images of our time. If that is the case, and everything Leica do and say suggests it is, then they need to listen to these people. And I'm glad they do and hope they continue to do so. Did they sign up an exclusive deal with "Armchair Cat Photographers Ltd" recently or was it the esteemed Magnum group? I believe that I, as a cat shooter, can only benefit from this relationship and critique from the pro's. My cat shots will be no better, but the camera I use to do them will be. Peace. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 6, 2011 Share #151 Posted July 6, 2011 Thanks for putting me straight - honestly don't know how I managed working in print journalism for the last 20 yrs . I have truly every respect for the OP and it certainly is no mean achievement to go out and work in a war zone. Maybe you might care to take a look at the work of Stanley Greene in Chechnya or Don McCullin/Larry Burrows (Leica M user) in Vietnam for a really harrowing view of combat photography. Well I wasn't "putting you straight" - I was trying to be careful not to single anyone out or directly judge anyone else's experience. I didn't make any assumptions about any particular person's experience in war zones, or anywhere else for that matter. Personally, I have no experience of any combat zone of any sort. Because of this, I read critiques like that of the OP with a certain respect, as for me using a camera in this sort of situation is a very effective stress test. Additionally, in spite of many comments to the contrary, the OP had used M cameras for fifteen years. People here trying to paint him as some sort of newbie who bought an M9 on a whim are simply misrepresenting his posts. I don't agree with everything he said (the framelines issue, for instance), but I don't understand why the discussion can't simply be on the points of issue, and not attacking the person. PS: the 'cat photo' thing was a joke. I don't have a cat either - or a dog. But I do have a daughter - and she constitutes about 90% of my photographic subjects these days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted July 6, 2011 Share #152 Posted July 6, 2011 But I do have a daughter - and she constitutes about 90% of my photographic subjects these days. I know of no nicer way to use your camera :) Amen brothers. [edit] Just to add Paul, I totally agree with the "armchair" distinction. But people are too easily offended and are reading offence where there is none. Literally speaking, a war photographer will stress test the system more than someone who never leaves the house with the camera. Literally speaking a photographer who knows the image he wants, takes hundreds upon hundreds a day, every day and can't do it with a certain camera can report back better than I, taking my one cat shot a day. NONE of this is a comparison of peoples image creation ability and it's a shame people can't objectively separate the two. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted July 6, 2011 Share #153 Posted July 6, 2011 His definition of a pro photographer was "to be dropped into an area with just a Leica and a 50mm lens and come out with the definitive picture coverage of that area and events within it". Which, interestingly, is exactly what the OP did, and both the camera failed him, as he did it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSL Posted July 6, 2011 Share #154 Posted July 6, 2011 Don't think HCB used a VIDOM when he took the leaping man at Rear of the Gare Du Nord in Paris - have a look at it if you truly want to see what is meant by "Decisive Moment" . (1) That's not what HCB meant by "decisive moment." As Casey Stengel said, "You could look it up." (2) "Behind the Gare Saint-Lazare" is one of two HCB photographs we know was cropped. "The other is Cardinal Pacelli in Montmarte." In the first case, there was a post to his left he hadn't time to move away from. You can see the post in a partially uncropped version if you read Henri Cartier-Bresson: Scrapbook. In the second case he had to raise the camera above his head and shoot down -- blindly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted July 6, 2011 Share #155 Posted July 6, 2011 It always seems to upset people whenever some professional photographer has something negative to say about a Leica. I get the reasoning, I really do. A large part of the blame has to be laid at the feet of marketing execs who I think over-sell that aspect of the Leica. But I must say that a negative review from a pro doesn't upset me the way it upsets some people. Barnack himself may have been a professional camera builder, but he was a self-admitted amateur photographer. He did not set about to design a camera for war photographers, he designed the Leica because he (being athsmatic) wanted something he could carry around more comfortably than the "serious" cameras of the day, and still get excellent image quality compared to the "consumer" cameras of the day. Not coincidentally, those are my exact reasons for choosing an M9 today. I bought the M9 to fill my needs, and it does. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted July 6, 2011 Share #156 Posted July 6, 2011 Did - the camera fail him? I certainly got that impression from his post yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted July 6, 2011 Share #157 Posted July 6, 2011 I bought the M9 to fill my needs, and it does. As did I, and it fills my needs too. That doesn't mean it can't be improved to fulfil the OP's needs also though does it now? That's the rather belaboured point all of this always comes down to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted July 6, 2011 Share #158 Posted July 6, 2011 Did - the camera fail him? Well my last post was an observation that the OP seemed to have gone and bought a camera knowing the M8 had not suited him but still going for an M9 - I'm still curious as to why? Many of his frustrations seem to have been ones which he should really have already have been aware of - viewfinder set at one distance, battery capacity (same), the need to shoot raw for highest image quality, etc.. And his post sounds to me as though he'd expected all of these to have been substantially changed with the M9, but they actually haven't and most can't be shifted all that much. It doesn't sound as though the camera actually failed him, but rather that it did not suit his way of operating nor his workflow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted July 6, 2011 Share #159 Posted July 6, 2011 Ok, so effectively we're saying the M9 is not a camera for tough environments. Not a camera for hard photojournalistic use. More of a gentleman's camera, not quite as serious say as a top line canon or Nikon. Further, most of us, for our use, are happy with that? We're saying yes, up to the M6/M7 the Leica was the go to camera for reportage, for war coverage, for capturing the moment the world changed. After that however, it became a hobby camera. Of course capable of capturing lovely images, as long as it's not in hostile environments. Like a fine weather camera for slow, gentle use where you have time to frame up, re-frame, adjust a little and gently squeeze off the shot. Pop it back in your brand new Billingham and take a taxi home. That's fine. I seriously doubt that Leica agree or want that impression. In fact, I'd put a good amount of money on it. But you know, whatever. [edit - artistic license was used to reinforce the image. Pedants re-sheath your sharpened pencils.] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Washington Posted July 6, 2011 Share #160 Posted July 6, 2011 After the use and torture my M-9 has been through it positively proves otherwise ….. so rugged even a cave man can use it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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