Open Letter to Leica — 10 Ways To Improve the M9 Rangefinder

[AlanG]

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She has vision and access. Two things that matter greatly.

 

Yes there are a lot of things that can matter often much more than the camera used.

 

Back to improving the M9. On another thread, I closely examined some linked images of the Getty Museum. Many of the fine dark lines in the building were depicted with something like color moire so they go from green to magenta instead of staying neutral. (I could clearly see this on my good monitor but it was much less apparent on my laptop.)

 

So I really think this issue has to be improved on the camera for it to be useful for architecture. It surely affects other subjects too and works against having good lenses and a high res sensor.

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[leebert]

can we kill this thread now?

 

 

Please?

[yanidel]

Open challenge to anyone on this forum. Let's hit the streets of NYC. I'll bring a videographer and we'll post it on You Tube. I'm confident that I can shoot any scene faster and more discreetly with an iPhone than you can with an M9.

 

Yes I'm serious.

 

I bought an M9 in February. Love it. I walk with it everyday and I'm pleased with the images I've been producing. However, its slower than shooting with my iPhone and its much harder to be discreet with an M9 than it is with an iPhone.

Of course, and can we do it at 10pm in low light ?

Discreet is about how you move, act and behave. It is not about sneaky shots faking you are typing on your phone.

[Xmas]

Yes there are a lot of things that can matter often much more than the camera used.

 

Back to improving the M9. On another thread, I closely examined some linked images of the Getty Museum. Many of the fine dark lines in the building were depicted with something like color moire so they go from green to magenta instead of staying neutral. (I could clearly see this on my good monitor but it was much less apparent on my laptop.)

 

So I really think this issue has to be improved on the camera for it to be useful for architecture. It surely affects other subjects too and works against having good lenses and a high res sensor.

Hi

 

If it is a sampling alias (i.e. Moire) then you can address in post processing, doing it in camera will degrade all your pictures doing it post could be selective and need only degrade the problem pictures.

 

noel

[AlanG]

Hi

 

If it is a sampling alias (i.e. Moire) then you can address in post processing, doing it in camera will degrade all your pictures doing it post could be selective and need only degrade the problem pictures.

 

noel

 

I don't think it is possible to correct these in post - at least not very easily. I don't know if this is simply due to not having an AA filter or if it is due to superior image processing in other systems.

 

I don't think there is as much loss of sharpness using an AA filter as some suspect. I studied these images closely and if this is truly representative and common, it certainly would not be worth the trade-off to me.

 

Look closely at these on a good monitor and see what you think. I could upload and provide links to some similar subject full res images that I have shot with 24 and 17 tse lenses if anyone is actually interested in comparing.

 

These photos were linked by jrovener and presented for discussion. Since I clipped them into another post, I hope he doesn't mind me inserting them here again. They should be removed if he objects.

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[bill]

It's a rubbish camera, Alan, made by a rubbish company. They do nothing you want, or you would surely have one. Remind us again why you care?

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[Xmas]

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Hi

 

a) google moire + photoshop

 

an incamera AA degrades resolution

 

Noel

[Double Negative]

Forget Leica and the M9. I think we need to improve the users.

[AlanG]

It's a rubbish camera, Alan, made by a rubbish company. They do nothing you want, or you would surely have one. Remind us again why you care?

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Look Bill. I am interested in the camera. But I am an extremely critical user. (Especially before I'd invest $25K or so into a system.) That is why I examine the images so closely. I know what can be done with moire filters in post and that is not exactly what I am looking for as a solution. Do you really feel the detail in these photos is so exceptional that it warrants having to try to correct the problems in post? I do not. If this is not representative, then please show me some similar examples that do not produce this issue. If you are not prepared to engage in an open objective discussion about the imaging qualities of the camera then why do you care to be here?

 

So far I see some things in the imaging of this camera that I believe need improving. If you wish to simply dismiss this as unimportant, then do so. But I believe that when I photograph a building, the lines should not be multi-colored or start to disappear. I've shot countless buildings and have not seen anything like this. These are not being produced from a textured pattern but from simple straight lines. For me, the imaging qualities of this camera have to stand on their own regardless of how others like using the camera. Perhaps some readers (not you of course) would like to see these examples so they will know in advance what is likely to happen.

[John Ricard]

Of course, and can we do it at 10pm in low light ?

Discreet is about how you move, act and behave. It is not about sneaky shots faking you are typing on your phone.

 

 

If you're serious about going out and doing this we can most certainly do it at 10pm and in low light. Although I'm not sure why you get to define "discreet". I will definitely be taking sneaking shots while pretending to type on my phone. I am confident that I can nail shots in this manner faster than you can on your M9 although I am willing to put it to the test and do it for real if you are.

 

Let me know.

[pop]

.. I believe that when I photograph a building, the lines should not be multi-colored. For me, the imaging qualities of this camera have to stand on their own regardless of how others like using the camera.

 

I agree. It's the same with the texture of clothes. Moiré can ruin a shot and can be quite difficult to correct. That might not be an issue in street shots or botanical experiments. It's an issue in pictures showing theater costumes.

[AlanG]

I agree. It's the same with the texture of clothes. Moiré can ruin a shot and can be quite difficult to correct. That might not be an issue in street shots or botanical experiments. It's an issue in pictures showing theater costumes.

 

Architectural interiors also have a lot of textiles and various patterns that can show moire as well as the sharp lines in the building structure. This is why I am so sensitive to this because I study almost all of my architectural and interior images at 100% and so rarely come across significant moire.

 

I also have no choice but to believe that this color pattern on very fine edges degrades various types of images even if the moire is not so obvious as making green and magenta patterns in the fine lines or a typical obvious moire pattern.

 

Sometimes the moire filters help and sometimes they don't do it so well. Correcting for moire in post sometimes degrades the image in various ways too. All I am saying is that it seems to me that Leica might want to consider working on this basic imaging issue before they worry about adding features or much of anything else.

[Jamie Roberts]

Alan, on the moire--it's really quite over-rated.

 

Here's one of your stolen panels / samples at random. Took 20 seconds in Photoshop CS5 to correct--even with the JPEG. C1 would have done this automatically for me, pretty much, with the RAW file...

 

original

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20s correction:

 

I also don't see "disappearing lines..." Where are they exactly? I see some that are different from others; forgive me if I don't blame the camera for that, however.

 

Should the M9 have moire artifacts? No, but it does. Do Canons and Nikons with CMOS filters and AA filters suffer from all kinds of artifacts, including moire?

 

Answer? Yes, they do. I've seen it for years--I call it the curse of bridesmaid's dresses! In truth, it's not that prevalent on *any* system.

 

And they do that without exhibiting nearly the sharpness of the M9 or DMR or Phase backs.

 

I understand you're critical of an expensive system. But you're hypercritical of it in this case. Bill is correct: for you it won't add up, and that's too bad. For me, it's the system I prefer to use most of the time for the work I do.

 

That's not to say it's for everyone. It isn't.

 

YMMV.

[pop]

All I am saying is that it seems to me that Leica might want to consider working on this basic imaging issue before they worry about adding features or much of anything else.

 

Unfortunately, it seems to me anything but certain whether such a cure exists, short of blurring the image drawn by the lens. After all, the effect is an interference pattern between image structure and sensor structure and is named after the fabric printing method where the interference is desired.

 

I even seem to remember greenish interference patterns on the b/w telly.

[AlanG]

I still see it on my monitor - reduced but not clean enough. Now it is mostly blue to black. I know that some here wish to minimize this but to me it is a serious imaging problem if sharp edges are recorded this way.

 

I am hypercritical but isn't getting this right important for a high res camera with very sharp expensive lenses? This thread is about ways to improve the camera not how to correct flawed images.

 

What would make these lines not show up? Could the building look this way? I think there is something wrong with the image processing. But I really don't know. I've never gotten this effect. Try putting the lines back into this shot.

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[Jamie Roberts]

I still see it on my monitor - reduced but not clean enough. I know that some here wish to minimize this but to me it is a serious imaging problem if sharp edges are recorded this way.

 

What would make these lines not show up? Try putting the lines back into this shot.

 

LOL clean enough for what exactly?

 

As I said, the above moire reduction literally took 20s of my time--it takes longer to write and post the correction than to do it. I admit correcting oh, the 10 I've seen over tens of thousands of M9 shots (and tens more thousands of m8 shots) might take an extra, oh, 10 minutes over the course of 5 years. Let's be generous here and say they take a minute each to fix.

 

And truth to tell, there are some artefacts that are so bad (from any camera maker, I might add) that they're a PITA to process.

 

On the Canons it's the horrible CA / birefringeance (that's what Canon called it--not stepping into that debate!) on any of their high-end glass wide open with any of their high-end sensors under high-contrast conditions.

 

But honestly, moire is just not that big a deal. (full caveat--I don't shoot that many buildings).

 

Ok, so on the next question--the disappearing lines.

 

Light does funny things to a subject, Alan, you know that. Is there a shot with another camera with the same POV and aperture? Otherwise, no-one will ever know if the lines are disappearing, weren't there to begin with, or being tricked by the light.

[AlanG]

Unfortunately, it seems to me anything but certain whether such a cure exists, short of blurring the image drawn by the lens. After all, the effect is an interference pattern between image structure and sensor structure and is named after the fabric printing method where the interference is desired.

 

I even seem to remember greenish interference patterns on the b/w telly.

 

I understand this and know there may be physical limitations. But this is the kind of stuff I think companies are working on in their basic image processing algorithms. I am not qualified to say for sure if it is only improved by using an AA filter or in post. I am venturing a guess that if Leica gets some really good people working on this they can get some improvement in their image processing.

 

I certainly have seen examples where various raw converters were better than others at eliminating aliasing along sharp edges. (That was a couple of years ago and some might have caught up.) But since Leica supplies Lightroom, is that not one of the better ones for this camera? (DXO does not support the Leica files.)

[AlanG]

Ok, so on the next question--the disappearing lines.

 

Light does funny things to a subject, Alan, you know that. Is there a shot with another camera with the same POV and aperture? Otherwise, no-one will ever know if the lines are disappearing, weren't there to begin with, or being tricked by the light.

 

Here is a link to the entire photo. You can see the lines have disappeared even in the low res version. Al four of his Getty Museum photos have line drop outs. (Even the areas in shadow.) I can't think of any way to explain this. The b/w ones clearly show some aliasing on the edges. I don't have the raw files and I know some of this might be in the raw conversion so I'll withhold conclusions. But I shoot a lot of buildings and have not run across either the "moire" on sharp edges or the drop outs. (I don't know if calling this moire is correct as it is a simple edge and not an interference pattern. It really is a zigzag edge that is getting some color artifacts)

 

Leica M9 Photos - jeffrovner's Photos

 

On signature pieces such as this, architects and builders work very precisely to make sure these lines are consistent. That does not mean they are perfect of course. Here is a Google image search for the Getty Museum. I might have missed it but I didn't see one other image that had lines that dropped out like this. But perhaps we need to see them a bit larger so again it is inconclusive. I'm looking for some high res examples that were shot from similar angles and with similar lighting.

 

photos of getty center museum - Google Search

 

If anyone shoots a lot of buildings with an M9 perhaps they have an opinion to add on this that might shed light on this being normal or an anomally.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[lct]

I agree. It's the same with the texture of clothes. Moiré can ruin a shot and can be quite difficult to correct. That might not be an issue in street shots or botanical experiments. It's an issue in pictures showing theater costumes.

Sure it is but we all know this don't we. It is a compromise to accept, or refuse, to get a camera sans AA filter.

[Double Negative]

To borrow from the vernacular of usenet...

 

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