someonenameddavid Posted May 30, 2011 Share #21 Posted May 30, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) The recession does not necessarily affect wealthy collectors who are determined to acquire scarce/rare/unique items at any price. And it's not just cameras ... high prices are being realised for works of art, jewellery, clocks and watches, musical instruments and classic cars. dunk If you think about a recession as a part of the business cycle where the wise position is to be holding cash rather than other assets; when you start coming out of that Part of the cycle, there will be inflation due to quantitative easing and so moving funds into high value unique items may be a good strategy. I would favour artwork rather than million dollar Leicas though. You expect eventually to find "The Bigger Fool" to buy your investment from you. There are few "fools like us" who have the readies to buy that outlier of a camera. More people woyld buy a fine violin made in Italy with double purfling (its the Maggini/ Brescia reference again ;-)) David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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dkCambridgeshire Posted May 30, 2011 Share #22 Posted May 30, 2011 If you think about a recession as a part of the business cycle where the wise position is to be holding cash rather than other assets; when you start coming out of that Part of the cycle, there will be inflation due to quantitative easing and so moving funds into high value unique items may be a good strategy. I would favour artwork rather than million dollar Leicas though. You expect eventually to find "The Bigger Fool" to buy your investment from you. There are few "fools like us" who have the readies to buy that outlier of a camera. More people woyld buy a fine violin made in Italy with double purfling (its the Maggini/ Brescia reference again ;-))David One can argue that Stradivari violins and known early Leica cameras (including Elmax) have similar scarcity. So why shouldn't a very early Leica command a million dollars? And the chances are that the Leica would have a higher % of original parts than the Strad. ... or the Maggini. At least collectors help to preserve landmark artifacts for the benefit (in the widest sense) of future generations. Unfortunately, modern day electronic cameras are probably far too complex to compete with the longevity of the simple early Leica. Those who hanker after the early Leica cameras recognise Barnack's contribution and vision and the fact that for many years the Japanese camera manufacturers regarded Leica as the benchmark to aspire to. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted May 30, 2011 Author Share #23 Posted May 30, 2011 Well... Stradivaris, Magginis, Guarneris (and let's not forget ol' Gasparo... ) are instruments that still TODAY have a sound hard to be equalled... this isn't the case for a much more technological device like a camera... I think, with due respect, that the comparision to Barnack & friends is limited to the fact that in both cases you see a vsionary concept that defined the following developments of the device... Anyway, the issue of those stellar values imho is related only to the surging of "new riches" which, time to time, brings to odd "ramp-ups" in the most diverse fields of collecting of "classics"... be they cameras, or cars, or watches, or paintings, or post stamps, or.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted May 30, 2011 Author Share #24 Posted May 30, 2011 Can someone suggest an explanation for the bizarre prices bid for the lots with multiple lenses: ie 2 x Summitar 5cm €2880, 3 x Elmar 9cm €3120, 5 x Hektor 13,5cm €4080. These are crazy prices and many times more than individual lenses in far better condition fetched. There must be a reason so I am hoping someone can tell me what it is. Thanks, Simon This is for me COMPLETELY INEXPLICABLE... ... in the screwmount lenses group you can find some items (Compur Summicron, Summilux 50, Thambar...) that have reached high prices... but they are undoubtly rare items... I don't comment about the stellar price of cine lenses (don't know anything about)... but those small groups of common lenses, with a normal base price.... really is a mistery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted May 30, 2011 Share #25 Posted May 30, 2011 Well... Stradivaris, Magginis, Guarneris (and let's not forget ol' Gasparo... ) are instruments that still TODAY have a sound hard to be equalled... this isn't the case for a much more technological device like a camera... I think, with due respect, that the comparision to Barnack & friends is limited to the fact that in both cases you see a vsionary concept that defined the following developments of the device... Anyway, the issue of those stellar values imho is related only to the surging of "new riches" which, time to time, brings to odd "ramp-ups" in the most diverse fields of collecting of "classics"... be they cameras, or cars, or watches, or paintings, or post stamps, or.... Barnack and friends sowed the seed and from those few hundred cameras a whole industry of miniature cameras evolved. Is it thus surprising that Japanese collectors are prepared to pay such premium prices for embryonic miniature cameras that were cloned by their forefathers into the beginnings of their own extensive home camera industry? The stellar values are not only the result of the nouveau riche's desire to spend - there is also the desire to proudly own those embryos - and to compete with other collectors for the ownership. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted May 30, 2011 Share #26 Posted May 30, 2011 ...That someone has made today (Lot 1) WestLicht Photographica Auction (personally, offered 0,03% of that amount for a fine Summaron... but was overbidded... ) The same Leica 'O' series SN 107 sold for €336,000 to a European collector in 2007 Rare Leica becomes dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SideB Posted May 31, 2011 Share #27 Posted May 31, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) This is for me COMPLETELY INEXPLICABLE... ... in the screwmount lenses group you can find some items (Compur Summicron, Summilux 50, Thambar...) that have reached high prices... but they are undoubtly rare items... I don't comment about the stellar price of cine lenses (don't know anything about)... but those small groups of common lenses, with a normal base price.... really is a mistery. Thanks Luigi it has me baffled too. This is rather reminiscent of the scandal that engulfed the vintage watch auction house Antiquorum a few years ago (under a previous owner). It turned out they actually owned a large proportion of the watches they were selling and had "bought in" many of the higher priced lots that should have been marked "unsold". Effectively the auction house was - on paper at least - paying itself inflated prices in order to raise the value of certain marques. I am NOT suggesting this happened here so there must be some other rational explanation why anyone would pay more than 1000 € for an Elmar 9cm lens in rough condition. Any ideas? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted May 31, 2011 Share #28 Posted May 31, 2011 I think there is always a reason...a lens that seems normal to one may be special for another one, the first man, may be, don't know something hidden in a special lot or ser. n. Moreover there are collectors and collectors, nowadays some of them sometimes are a step behind regarding informations...It' would be great if Leica makes the archives opened to ALL;). Regarding Westlicht auction house, I know a couple of these buyers of apparently crazy items, so, my guess, not guilty. Cheers P.S.: if one want to raise the value of certain lenses, there is little chance if you start your project including the 9cm. elmar. There will be noone that will realize .The plain ones will remain on the same range. Westlich should take little or none advantage from this, the only consequence for common people is that they will never buy an elmar from them:D. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted May 31, 2011 Author Share #29 Posted May 31, 2011 .... P.S.: if one want to raise the value of certain lenses, there is little chance if you start your project including the 9cm. elmar. There will be noone that will realize .The plain ones will remain on the same range. Westlich should take little or none advantage from this, the only consequence for common people is that they will never buy an elmar from them . ... well, I'm very tempted to buy at Leicashop an Elmar 9, Wartime, black etc..., in other words an item MUCH similar to the "magic trio of the auction"... for 99 Euros as stated in their site .... ... then put next to it my other identical Elmar 9 dated a pair of years before... wait for the next Auction and see if, putting on sale the duo, can enjoy my "biz of the year"... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted May 31, 2011 Share #30 Posted May 31, 2011 That $1.9 million WestLicht Leica story has been picked up by all of the US TV network news organizations as being the most expensive camera in the world. Leica can't buy publicity like that! However this begs the question, "What recession?" Recessions don't mean much to the very wealthy. In fact, the wealthiest are making more money than before the recession. Look to certain diversified international stocks. A local toothless, ragged, hillbilly bumpkin is a multimillionaire because he's invested wisely for over twenty four years. They man isn't even 50 yet! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeno_domjan Posted May 31, 2011 Share #31 Posted May 31, 2011 Photography & art collection are two different sports, the only thing in common is the horse they ride. Now in this particular case the O series Leica is not a camera but a masterpiece, that worth the price & the prize it gained by becoming the most expensive masterpiece, recently. The Stradivari is a good example except for one thing, no photographer will be luring to grab this camera from the 1920s for the pure reason that it was designed for, namely to capture images. Ask a cellist about playing on a Stradivari is anything close to her/his dreams… These instruments are owned by collectors & played by musicians, a joint venture that helps preserve the instrument itself. This will never be the same with cameras, although as a second thought I ‘d gladly participate in Collectors ver. Photographers relationship where Leicas in useable condition could be borrowed for real work. Anyone interested? Cheers, Jeno Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted May 31, 2011 Share #32 Posted May 31, 2011 ... well, I'm very tempted to buy at Leicashop an Elmar 9, Wartime, black etc..., in other words an item MUCH similar to the "magic trio of the auction"... for 99 Euros as stated in their site .... ... then put next to it my other identical Elmar 9 dated a pair of years before... wait for the next Auction and see if, putting on sale the duo, can enjoy my "biz of the year"... ...wartime... is a good starting point, not enough, now we have to disclose "who"....so, again, Leitz registers please! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucisPictor Posted May 31, 2011 Share #33 Posted May 31, 2011 Amazing! EUR 3.360 for a fake? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted May 31, 2011 Share #34 Posted May 31, 2011 there must be some other rational explanation why anyone would pay more than 1000 € for an Elmar 9cm lens in rough condition. Any ideas? I've seen it suggested that some collectors look for consecutive serial numbers. Some others want serial numbers with numerological or esoteric significance. Could that have been the case here? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share #35 Posted June 1, 2011 I've seen it suggested that some collectors look for consecutive serial numbers. Some others want serial numbers with numerological or esoteric significance. Could that have been the case here? Well... I suppose that some collector would like, indeed, too have, for instance 3 or 4 lenses with consecutive s/n... but this isn't the case... also "round or near" s/n ending with 000 or 999 or 001 or so are historically "premium valued" (for bodies, expicially)... about numerologicals... personally, I was born 30th December 1956: of course, I'd like a lot to have the Leica IIIa # 301256 with the 5cm Summar # 301256 ... and would pay a decent premium price for them: in this sense, of course, any s/n can have a significance for someone... I don't find any explanation, frankly... the common factor is that they are all wartime items (Summitar, Elmar 9, Hektor), apparently with no military engravings (hidden ? )... the brown bakelite boxes are fine... the finders too, but not rare: I wait for someone to switch on a light about... for me is a mistery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share #36 Posted June 1, 2011 ...wartime... is a good starting point, not enough, now we have to disclose "who"....so, again, Leitz registers please! This could be a good path... the items could have been delivered to someone "special"... but why, if the fact is documented, not to declare this ? It makes the auction more interesting from the start... Hair-splitting + Head-scratching... ... wartime... imagine if the items were delivered to some people who is not so nice to quote squarely (3 Elmars for 3 people of Goering family, or Himmler...) : auction house could like not to detail it openly... it's a worldwide reknown organization... but the info could have been "around"... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SideB Posted June 1, 2011 Share #37 Posted June 1, 2011 The only theory I can come up with that does not involve some kind of shenanigans is that two very wealthy collectors were competing with each other to buy all three lots and really didn't care about the price. To me 3000 euros is a lot of money but there are pleanty of people who carry this around as loose change and will happily spend far more on a bottle of wine any night of the week. If they want something they can have it and they don't have to worry about the price. That's my theory anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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