PDN Review of the M8

[ken_tanaka]

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Photo District News (PDN), the well-established monthly mag catering mainly to the commercial photo community, has prepared its review of the M8. I'll not run afoul of copyrights by reproducing the review here. But an excerpt from the final paragraph provides a clue to their opinion.

 

"We wish Leica had spent a bit more time with the M8 before releasing it because a perfect M8 would have easily secured Leica's spot in the digital world. Now we'll have to wait for the M9."

 

The article is online at the PDN site available to subscribers.

[marknorton]

Ken, I think that's an insightful comment. We're all part of Leica's extensive beta test and while the camera is more than usable, there must be a list of things they will do differently for the M9 but I expect it will have to wait in any case for progress with sensors and probably batteries as well.

 

I hope they have the good sense to solicit opinion from M8 owners on what the M9 should have...

[ken_tanaka]

I hope they have the good sense to solicit opinion from M8 owners on what the M9 should have...

Actually it's my impression that they had abundant input from thousands of M photographers around the world. I think that two other, much scarcer, factors led to the M8's issues; time and money. Leica's protracted sclerotic resistance of the concept of a "digital M" cost it much time that might have been productively devoted to engineering development and development of technical alliances with other companies. Meanwhile the company's dwindling coffers and management missteps forced it to bring the M8 to market a bit before it was really ready.

 

Perhaps they will earn enough from sales to the early adopter gottahavits to create an "M9", or at least a refined M8 (maybe an "M8r" -- the "r" signifying "ready") within my lifetime. I'm eager to buy a digital M that lives up to the M tradition.

[cocker]

I'm eager to buy a digital M that lives up to the M tradition.

 

Interesting - I bought one and am really enjoying it

[marknorton]

Yes, you do wonder at the attitude of "we've convinced ourselves we can't do a digital M, let's do a crocodile skin special instead!". The whole Hermes thing was bad news and Leica are still playing catch up.

[tom0511]

Photo District News (PDN), the well-established monthly mag catering mainly to the commercial photo community, has prepared its review of the M8. I'll not run afoul of copyrights by reproducing the review here. But an excerpt from the final paragraph provides a clue to their opinion.

 

"We wish Leica had spent a bit more time with the M8 before releasing it because a perfect M8 would have easily secured Leica's spot in the digital world. Now we'll have to wait for the M9."

 

The article is online at the PDN site available to subscribers.

 

wuuhuu,

its getting kind of boring. Conclusions like this dont say much to me.

Fact is that Since I have owned my M8 the d2x,d200 and rd1 dont see much light.

IQ is great and its a joy to use the camera.

[kidigital]

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Interesting how any comments about Leica and any M8 deficiencies always seem to tied up in back-handed slaps at early adopters. I think more than a few of us "knowwhatwe'redoonits" are more than happy with our decisions and are unapologetic about our "gladwehavits."

 

Kurt

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Bottom line who gives a crap how it got here, when it got here and what it does not do, did or what it is going to do. It's here and it works great. So everyones opinion is not on what really counts at the end of the day and that is the image. All reviews are basing on what should have been or what the should do now. It's all BS really does it really matter . Are we photographers that go out and shoot and look at the image. my clients can really care less about any of this all they care about is the image. Honestly not pointing fingers or anything like that just in general this stuff is getting real old real fast. My goal is to work and make money and produce outstanding images for my clients and myself. What work arounds i have to do with filters I need means really nothing. If the camera can produce and has value than it is worth it too me. Every camera i have owned has work arounds or issues or marketting issues or finiancial issues . Everything has issues, do we really wait for perfection from anyone to shot the camera. My clients are not waiting and if they did i would be flipping burgers. I know ,I know but i have my once a month rant and i'm fine. Go out and shoot the darn thing and have some fun. frankly i am having a blast with this damn thing and i won't even read the article it will just piss me off at some point.

 

Blood pressure below normal. LOL

[Jager]

Sounds a bit like the damning half-page commentary that PopPhoto published a couple months ago. Thanks for the heads-up, Ken. I'll swing by Borders this afternoon and read what PDN has to say.

 

Having noted that I haven't yet read it, I'll offer the observation that most of those who suggest that we all must await the M9 before we will have a decent digital M either don't _do_ rangefinders as a central part of their photography; or else they fail to understand the technical challenges inherent in bringing digital to the M design. The expectation, for instance, that the M9 will solve the much-ballyhooed IR issue without having to use filters is unrealistic until and unless some new sensor/micro lens technology is developed. That technology doesn't exisit today in any sort of economically-viable fashion.

 

Leica was clearly guilty of underestimating the extent of the IR effects and were grossly off the mark in not communicating those in advance of the camera's release. But the other issues have been fairly identified and rectified, IMHO.

 

It is easily the most exciting camera I've ever had the pleasure to use.

 

Jeff

[canlogic]

Oh my god I want my money back............. no wait my M8 works fine. I do want my money back from Microsoft. I just spent the last day and a half fighting with Vista and Office 2007. Luckily did a full system backup and created a startup cd so was able to restore. Bill spent 6 big ones developing this atrocity and he still didn't get it right. I run both PC's and a Mac so I am not a fan either way but I do make my living developing software for PC's.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Oh my god I want my money back............. no wait my M8 works fine. I do want my money back from Microsoft. I just spent the last day and a half fighting with Vista and Office 2007. Luckily did a full system backup and created a startup cd so was able to restore. Bill spent 6 big ones developing this atrocity and he still didn't get it right. I run both PC's and a Mac so I am not a fan either way but I do make my living developing software for PC's.

 

TALK ABOUT BEING A BETA TESTER. :D

[Guest guy_mancuso]

The funny thing is who SAID there will BE a M9. It may never happen and i agree with Jeff that technology to do fix the the IR may result in a completely different beast

[LJL]

I was not going to jump into this fray, but could not resist. I will say that I have NOT read the PDN article, nor will I probably bother at this point. The M8 is not perfect, but no camera is, so we either get used to it and adapt as needed, or pack it in and do a lot of armchair speculation. Sorry, that is really how I feel. Anybody that has really used the M8, not just "testing" and paying attention to complaints, would quickly realize that it is capable of delivering some rather outstanding image files. Yes, there are ongoing IR issues, but we do have a working "fix" for that. Yes, the AWB is a nightmare, but come on, what camera every nails that perfectly all the time. Besides, that is "fixable" or at least "tunable" in firmware. So what is the big deal?

 

I am very much with Guy on these thoughts. I shoot for a livng, and my clients do not care what I use, as long as I get the results. So far, the M8 has been able to deliver some things that I have had a harder time deilivering with my Canon 1-series cameras and lenses. That is all I really need to worry about. Get images that I like and clients love. Waiting around for a fabled M9 is more than a waste of time, it is deprivation of the ability to create art, gain/enhance business, enjoy the pure shooting pleasures of a real rangefinder camera, but done in digital. (I will not shoot film again, unless the client demands it and pays for all the gear, time, efforts to accomplish that.)

 

O.K., now I have gotten my rant over also. I am not trying to be a "fanboy" on the M8. Instead, I would offer that folks should go out and shoot it for a while before making snap judgements that are not all the helpful for those wondering about this incredible little gem of a true Leica camera.

 

LJ

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Well said LJ and i agree . i am not a fanboy either although at times it may sound like that but if brand B is better i will jump all over that in a NY second. I'm just after the best deliverable images i can get sure there is MF and such but I like the 35mm world, it works better for me and i am not married to the Red dot. i have sat and watched leica for over 30 years and never bought one but i always admired what they have, now I own them and still admire them for what they are.

[craigrmurray]

 

Blood pressure below normal. LOL

Thanks, Guy. I think more rants like yours are in order concerning the M8 (and all cameras, for that matter). Back in the 80s when I was a pro, shooting news, I had a reporter tell me that anyone could be a photographer if he had the right equipment. I said that was bullsh*t: the trained eye rules. So, on a dare, I shot my day's assignments with an old amateur camera (I think it was a Kodak Signet). Obviously, something like pro sports would have been difficult to shoot, although not impossible (there is the sports feature, or at least, there used to be). But otherwise, no real problems.

 

Anyway, shooting with a fixed lens was more liberating than limiting, in a way. I had to move around a lot more -- helps to get one out of lazy and bad habits. So, once every year or two, I'd spend a day with something like a box Brownie, or even a Rolleiflex TLR. Once, even a Speed Graphic -- hey, news photogs used 'em into the early sixties.

 

I'm sure you get my point. As you know, Guy, it's easy to become a 'gear queer'. I know I am. But the main reason I got so excited about the M8 was being able to go out and shoot with a rangefinder camera and a 28mm and forget about the equipment -- and with digital capture, not even have to worry about loading and reloading film. Needless to say, I love the damn thing -- but now I have to send it back to Deutschland and I don't think I can part with it for a month!

[Guest guy_mancuso]

What i like about the M8 is it actually makes me think and work a little harder. now that sounds like a bad thing but it is not it makes me work smarter and be more creative. i shot the 1dsMKII and all the canons and my work got boring , why you ask i was a button pusher and you get lazy. photograghy is about being a part of the image you create so working it is so much more fun and liberating. i have been a Pro so long that i gone into serious funks in my work for maybe months at a time because it got boring. Having fun and passion is what photography should be about, I know we all love the gear and admittedly I am a gearhead too but at some point you need to go shoot the thing and the M8 is just a joy too shoot . I actually look forward to go shoot some boring jobs. Not all of it is the glamour stuff

[sean_reid]

I'll not run afoul of copyrights by reproducing the review here.

 

Thanks, seriously, for that attitude. I respect it and agree.

 

As for the PDN article, I'll read it before commenting.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[jwr50]

I agree with Guy -- the M8 is a joy to shoot. I'm hard-pressed to think what an M9 might have that would make me give up my M8 to run out and buy one. It's been a long wait for a digital M, but the M8 has made it worth the wait.

[wattsy]

PDN is a decent rag and the only one that I subscribe to (albeit a free subscription:)). The reviews are usually pretty thorough and written from the point of view of working professionals. I would have been surprised if they hadn't been critical of various aspects of the M8.

[jrc]

I also like the M8 and subscribe to most of the comments of the M8-lovers.

 

Some of the mechanical/electronic difficulties (the streaks, the blobs) are just what happens when a new piece of equipment hits a very large user base. I'm not sure that any major camera has not had issues; the M8 problems are a walk in the park compared to the hassles of owning an original vesion of the Kodak SLRn, where they actually had to change sensors...

 

But still. It wasn't perfect, and perhaps it should have been better than it is. The IR is a genuine problem, because even the solution leaves you with the cyan problem. There have been numerous breakdowns, recently, which have yet to be fully diagnosed (mechanical? static-related?) Even Guy, who has ben very enthusiastic about the camra, had a breakdown while working, right? That's never good. And the turn around time, for we here in the US, is at least several weeks. That has to be shortened.

 

The M9 (or the M8 Mark II) will be better. But I don't think Leica talked to millions of M users before they designed this. I think they talked to a lot of designers and engineers. Most M users, I think, would not have gone with the little round LCD on the top, just because it's remniscent of the old rewind knob. Screw the old rewind knob.

 

I'd like a rectangular LCD that shows battery, frames shot, frames remaining, ISO and shutter speed, with backlighting for low-light situations. See the top LCD on the NIkon D2x.

 

I would like some weather sealing.

 

It's not a terrible problem, but I am becoming less enamoured of the detachable bottom plate. There are better solutions.

 

I'm disgusted that we have to pay close to $100 for a battery that probably costs three dollars to manufacture. They should have gone with a generic.

 

We need lens menus in addition to the lens coding.

 

And we need an internal solution to the IR problem -- I suspect that if people worked hard enough, they could come up with a top filter for the sensor that would deal with the IR. it might take some engineering, but nothing as difficult as building a sensor -- they need a variable density filter with slightly less IR filtration out toward the edges. Some have said that a heavier filter can't be used because of space limitations; but somebody else pointed ot that Nikon uses a thinner but stronger filter on their sensor. Make that filter continuously variable, and the problem should be solved...

 

We also need a simple solution for a wide-angle viewfinder, instead of that huge box they're now trying to sell. Just take a CV design, put three lines in it, and let it go at that.

 

And they need to figure out what is causing these random breakdowns that seem to involve LCD review and the multi-switch. This technology has been in use for a decade, now, and show be fairly reliable.

 

JC

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Hallo,

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