menos I M6 Posted April 7, 2011 Share #21 Posted April 7, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) M3 are getting age related problems, repairable but expensive. M6 is a nice camera and you should be happy. It is missing a little of the panache of the early M cameras, but you should be pleased none the less. I have two from early production M6s that I use mostly while the early M cameras sit. A new MP is simply not worth the extra money, but do take knowledgeable person to inspect the purchase if you can. Much like having your own mechanic look over a used car before you buy it. A nice M6 will be 1/3 the money of a MP and provide 95% of the satisfaction. Here, a nice M6 classic goes for about half of what a similarly nice MP sells. I own a M6 classic 0.72 and added a black MP 0.72 recently. Here is the differences for me: - the (classic) advance lever is much better - it can be advanced in one smooth wind from being folded completely without slipping or missing - I like that - the MP is heavier (different material), which can be a good or a bad thing - you decide - the MP adds a battery warning light, which is cool actually ;-) - the MP comes in black paint, which is THE finish, a camera should be min for me - you decide - the MP has a MUCH better finder, than the M6 - it looks like the same flare free, contrasty finder than the M8.2, I am using and makes the M6 classic finder look cheap, while still bettering my early M7 0.85 finder by some - the MP has a more sensitive meter in low light than the M6 - the M6 has not generally a corrosion issue due to it's material - mine is an absolutely zinc bubble free sample, looking like new, there are plenty of others without issues - the M6 is not generally less smooth or the MP the smoothest new Leica of them all! My M6 is the smoothest Leica, I ever tried, including many, many different samples in shops from M3 to MP - I hope, my MP will be run in and feel the same in some time - both cameras share the same body measurements and feel the same in your hand, except the weight difference, advance lever and rewind crank - nothing tops the angled rewind crank of the M6 in speed - nothing, not even any contraption, you can add to the MP knob. I need 28 1/2 turns in less than 20sec and I have a perfectly rewound "leader out" 36 exposure roll - the MP rewind knob is S L O W - you better prepare and watch your frames left, when shooting with a knobbed camera I like the MP more, when shooting. It is a practical thing for the much, much better finder. It is a thing of feel for the more heft and tight feel. It is a nicer feel, as I prefer the smooth paint surface under my fingers, than the grainy chrome structure - the smooth paint grips your fingers better in my experience (love my M8.2 for that as well). MP or M7, to pair with a M9? Go definitely for the M7, if quick shooting without brain hickups and AE use is, what you need. Go for the MP, if you think, you need a "ZEN thing", or what that is called. Go for the M6, if you need a backup. Go for the M6 and have it's finder upgraded, if you need a backup and want a superior finder - you could get lucky and find a similarly good M7 with modern finder for the same price as M6+finder upgrade. Go for a freshly CLA'd M3, if you can tolerate no internal meter and want the most gorgeous finder, to shoot a 50mm. There is nothing like it in a modern Leica. I like my MP very much. I like my M7 even better, when quick and practical (rewinding, AE, shutter speed dial) pairing with a digital M is mandatory. I like my M6, as it is the smoothest Leica of them all and don't plan, to part with it. I hope, that helps, to make a decision. You can't go wrong with either ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 7, 2011 Posted April 7, 2011 Hi menos I M6, Take a look here M6 or MP?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Beta Photography Posted April 7, 2011 Share #22 Posted April 7, 2011 How about M2 like this.... it's not meterless, it's added meter the VF is simple too only 35, 50 and 90 (that's all you ever need in RF). The style is comparable even to modern Leica like MP Rgrds, Beta Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazed & Confused Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share #23 Posted April 7, 2011 Wow, this thread has certainly caught people's attention. Thank you to everyone for all their help. I have just had some bad news - the M9 that I was due to buy has fallen through. If anyone knows of any good deals on a used black M9 (wrong forum, I know), please let me know . The good news is that this means I now have more time to concentrate on my M2/3/6/7/P purchase, and an (old, terrible) 35mm and (older, more terrible) 50mm lens going spare. Firstly: Someone asked me about film. I was initially thinking a 4GB SD card, or maybe 8GB. I then looked up this 'film' of which you speak on Wikipedia, and got confused. (This happens a lot, hence my name - nothing to do with Led Zep). I need to read up on the difference between slide and print film - I want to end up with prints, but I imagine it's not that simple. I was also expecting to end up with negatives to scan. I've used film M cameras before, but all borrowed, and they came with film, and the guy I borrowed them from developed the film- so I'm a real novice. Tri-X rings a bell - it was definitely black and white (I can tell by the lack of colours). [sTART STUPID QUESTIONS] How do I get film developed? If I send it away, how does the lab know how to adjust the individual prints to show proper exposure (as someone talked about print film being forgiving)? [END STUPID QUESTIONS] Secondly: I don't mind about backwards controls compared to the M9 - I'm quite adaptable. I'm also happy with full manual, as most of my subjects are stationary, so aperture priority is not a requirement. C: I want one that will hold its value, without being too expensive to start with, in case my film experiment fails. 4: Metering - I'm still not sure about going completely unsupported. I know there are rules, but I like to have control over the look - not just 'good enough' exposure. (Again, this comes back to my lab/development question.) How are the hotshoe meters for the M2 and M3, or can/should I get a separate hand-held meter? Five: Viewfinder - I like the idea of a nice viewfinder. Does the M3 or M2 still beat the M6 when using 35mm lenses (or 90mm), or are they only good for 50mm? And who's idea was it for the M2 to come after the M3? I do like the look of the M2 and M3, but I'm worried about their use as a tool, rather than how they feel. In that respect is an M2 better, due to its age? (I expect I'm opening a can of worms here.) Who in the UK is a good source for reliable used kit? I think that's it for now. This was only meant to be a quick decision, but I can see it's turning into a bit of a monster! Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
budrichard Posted April 7, 2011 Share #24 Posted April 7, 2011 "Am I missing something?" Nope! An M6 or an MP will take EXACTLY the same picture with the same lens. All the rest resides in the minds of users.-Dick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted April 7, 2011 Share #25 Posted April 7, 2011 I often prefer to take my M2 out rather than my MP or M6. Using a hand held meter is not big deal. Even when out with my MP/M6 I tend to use the hand held meter (Seikonic 308 very cheap off ebay). The M3 doesn't have frame lines wider than 50mm but all the other models do. You can purchase an accoesory 35mm finder for a M3 if you find a nice one. There aren't any poor 35 or 50 Leica lenses You just worry about your in camera exposure. The lab will usually try to get the best out of the frame when they scan the negs. Eentually you may prefer to scan your own for more control. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Fool Posted April 7, 2011 Share #26 Posted April 7, 2011 Hold on a sec, I think I'm missing something, you mean you don't have an M9 (yet) and you're sweating the difference between getting an M6 or MP as well, and then trying to save cash on the glass??? :-0 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted April 7, 2011 Share #27 Posted April 7, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi Dont expect any advice to be concurrent... . The good news is that this means I now have more time to concentrate on my M2/3/6/7/P purchase, and an (old, terrible) 35mm and (older, more terrible) 50mm lens going spare. There are a range of lenses to suit budget or whim [sTART STUPID QUESTIONS] How do I get film developed? If I send it away, how does the lab know how to adjust the individual prints to show proper exposure (as someone talked about print film being forgiving)? [END STUPID QUESTIONS] The lab usees an exposure meter for prints if your negative is not 'normal' hard luck. First of all four film types in abstract retained silver - mono C41 - mono C41 - colour E6- slides Initially if you have a (C41) mini lab nearby that is most convenient, they may tend to scratch and add debris if you are unlucky. If you badly bitten by the bug you can get the equipment to home process any of the film types, cross that bridge later, if you have a scan you may need to photo shop it, if you are going to wet print you need to do the equivalent.... Secondly: I don't mind about backwards controls compared to the M9 - I'm quite adaptable. I'm also happy with full manual, as most of my subjects are stationary, so aperture priority is not a requirement. C: I want one that will hold its value, without being too expensive to start with, in case my film experiment fails. 4: Metering - I'm still not sure about going completely unsupported. I know there are rules, but I like to have control over the look - not just 'good enough' exposure. (Again, this comes back to my lab/development question.) How are the hotshoe meters for the M2 and M3, or can/should I get a separate hand-held meter? all good decisions best meter (initially) is a westom master also cheapest - it has the zone based calculator - see Ansell Adams or Westons books on 'exact' exposure, then forget lots that you realise you dont need. Five: Viewfinder - I like the idea of a nice viewfinder. Does the M3 or M2 still beat the M6 when using 35mm lenses (or 90mm), or are they only good for 50mm? The M3 does 5, 9, & 135 (CM) The M2 soes 3.5, 5, & 9 And who's idea was it for the M2 to come after the M3? I do like the look of the M2 and M3, but I'm worried about their use as a tool, rather than how they feel. In that respect is an M2 better, due to its age? (I expect I'm opening a can of worms here.) Who in the UK is a good source for reliable used kit? Leitz were in coat throat competation with Nikon and Canon and decded to up the game with a reduced facility camera that was cheaper, they were holding theor own, but were stopping the IIIG their cheap camera, so need a gap filler. The age is not a problem condition of storage or damage more critical. Ivor @ Red Dot best place in London, cause he can explain things better, some of the others are rude, some too commercial,,some glossy bimbos...oops did I type that. But you could come on an outing, and natter or borow a camera... At the moment all the equipment seems to be appreciating, except for processing kt that you should be able to get for free... Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazed & Confused Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share #28 Posted April 7, 2011 Hold on a sec, I think I'm missing something, you mean you don't have an M9 (yet) and you're sweating the difference between getting an M6 or MP as well, and then trying to save cash on the glass??? :-0 Yeah, you are missing something. I have some crappy glass while waiting from my 50mm lux ASPH to arrive. I'm definitely not skimping on the glass! I was planning to have an M9 with a film body as backup with the 50mm mainly on the M9, and (nice) 28mm, 35mm or 90mm (still deciding which to order first) on the film body. I'd obviously swap lenses to the M9 as appropriate. The M9 delay should only be temporary - the reason I'm going used is to save money. Why spend extra when you don't have to? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazed & Confused Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share #29 Posted April 7, 2011 Hi The lab usees an exposure meter for prints if your negative is not 'normal' hard luck. Does that mean that any of my photos that are purposefully light or dark, come back under or overexposed? If that's the case, I guess I can resurrect the proper look from a scan in Lightroom? In terms of viewfinder, people seem to diss the M6's a 'flarey' - how does the M2 compare? And what about the M4? Nobody mentions the M4, and it's got a proper film rewind lever, which strikes me as useful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted April 7, 2011 Share #30 Posted April 7, 2011 Hi All your questions are excellent... The example I get is the C41 mono films are useful street shooting as they allow for really bad exposure errors, sort of. If your underexpose badly you need to photo shop make a CD and give that to mini lab. It still may not be what you desire, but... But my desl top printer will do photo quality A3 (I think, as never used it for prints). It was a discard by a Mr Toad. You need to seek out bargins, my wet enlarger was also free, not a Leica one though. Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted April 7, 2011 Share #31 Posted April 7, 2011 There is a database of grumbles for you to agonise over... Leica FAQ — RF patch flare The late M4-P (and late M4-2) up to but exclusive of M7 and MP all have a problem that will white out the rangefinder spot, when a bright light is at 3 oclock high. It doe not annoy some people, if you sticj a finger over the window it will reappear per normal, byt leica people are picky, picky.... Early M4-2 and earlier models don not have the white out ptoblem. An M4-2 will be cheaper then a M2 and has the 3.5,5, 9, and 13.5 cm windows of the M4. The black chrome looks horrible, picky, picky again. If you had a M2 or M3 there is an add on fast rewind device from Leica or 3rd parties, if this is a problem. The M4 and later rewind is prone to slippage from fat fingers and unwinding by itself, zzzzzp, up to the MP whcih I'm told has a one way clutch, which it does not need, having deleted the M4 style knob. You need to look at ZM lenses, the ZM camera, and the CV lenses, as you can get more cheap lenses or fewer less cheap lenses... Noel.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Fool Posted April 7, 2011 Share #32 Posted April 7, 2011 Yeah, you are missing something. I have some crappy glass while waiting from my 50mm lux ASPH to arrive. I'm definitely not skimping on the glass! I was planning to have an M9 with a film body as backup with the 50mm mainly on the M9, and (nice) 28mm, 35mm or 90mm (still deciding which to order first) on the film body. I'd obviously swap lenses to the M9 as appropriate. The M9 delay should only be temporary - the reason I'm going used is to save money. Why spend extra when you don't have to? Ahhh now I understand, good luck with your hunting. It's a tough choice deciding between M bodies :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted April 8, 2011 Share #33 Posted April 8, 2011 Yeah, you are missing something. I have some crappy glass while waiting from my 50mm lux ASPH to arrive. I'm definitely not skimping on the glass! I was planning to have an M9 with a film body as backup with the 50mm mainly on the M9, and (nice) 28mm, 35mm or 90mm (still deciding which to order first) on the film body. I'd obviously swap lenses to the M9 as appropriate. The M9 delay should only be temporary - the reason I'm going used is to save money. Why spend extra when you don't have to? I use a M8.2 with 50mm and a film body with 35mm mostly. I sometimes add a third body with a 90mm or a 15mm, as the mood of the day goes, if I am going to shoot pictures. I think, the crop digital and film mix is absolutely perfect, as I can vary different angles of view in a lighter package - the M8.2 has all, the M9 has bar the full frame sensor, which is very sufficient for the kind of prints, I am doing (usually up to 13x19 only). If you are the kind of guy, going for a M9 and the best 50mm there is, you don't want the bad standard finder, described here from later M4 to M6. You really want either an upgraded finder in one of those bodies or an older body (without meter) or a M7 or MP. I really like the practicality of the M7 - it does everything, any Leica M body does - I really miss mine (sitting, waiting for being send to Solms with jammed shutter !@#$%^). The MP is a nice camera to keep, but also the most expensive, practically available Leica film body. Here in the shops, second hand (nice, scratch free, but possibly earlier) M7 go for 1.500 to 1.800 EUR, while a similar MP will cost you 2.100 to 2.400 EUR usually. A nice M6 in similar condition goes for about 1.000 (classic, not M6TTL, which is usually ~100 to 200 more). The MP has been at stable used prices and rather scarce availability for the lat 2 years, I have been watched and hunted one. It was as low as 1.800 and lately went up again to over 2.000. M6 bodies are flooding the market, becoming cheaper and cheaper (especially old beaters from the 80s). The M7 seems to go somewhere in between price and availability wise, going a similar price direction like the M6. You pay about 250 EUR upwards for a finder upgrade for the M6 (you will want that, as soon, you have seen the viewfinder from the M9, which is contrasty and doesn't flare). This upgrade will leave you with the older meter, not metering in certain low light, while the M7 and MP does - you shoot in low light? Good luck with your decision - I would advice, to go straight, to what you really want (M7 or MP?) and don't look back, hunting from one body to another. It is nice, to have a "second" more affordable film body around (M2/ M4/ M6 beater), in the case, your 1st film body bites the dust (like my M7 recently). You will like the fact, to just switch bodies and keep shooting. I would definitely look for scanning your own from the beginning. Finding a lab, which provides scans, you want is much harder, than finding a 50 Lux ASPH in stock! Find a nice lab, which does the processing, but build up a redundant bathroom kit and use same developers, as the lab, in case, they have holiday or close up. I run very, very happy this way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted April 8, 2011 Share #34 Posted April 8, 2011 Hi, I'm looking for a film Leica to complement an M9. [...] Am I missing something? You are missing the M7 which operates so much like the M9 that the transition is very graceful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted April 8, 2011 Share #35 Posted April 8, 2011 hi Pico -- how are you feeling? i am in a bit of the same quandry, looking to sell my canon f1 ae finder and a bunch of fd lenses for ..... m6 m7 mp? to go with my m9 .... the karma of the forum says mp but the cost seems high relative to an m6 or even an m7 to warrant the difference. tough choice, of couse this should be toughest in life steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym911 Posted April 8, 2011 Share #36 Posted April 8, 2011 I am fortunate to have M2,M6,M7,M8 Depending on my mood/need I use: M8 for the days when I can't be bothered to develop a film...(not very often) M7 when I need/want to be fast and not think too much M6 when I feel a bit nostalgic as it was my first Leica M M2 when I am feeling like a real photographer For the pleasure factor just reverse the list as the M2 is by far the biggest for me, closely followed by the M6. In terms of image quality they are all identical and usability is similar. I don't own an MP (until Bill sells me his ) so I probably never will but I guess it is real close experience to the M2 from what I hear. Good luck in your choice. andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted April 8, 2011 Share #37 Posted April 8, 2011 You are going to have a long wait, Andy I agree though; I have what (I would!) think is the best of all worlds; M2, M7, MP. Each is different in handling and character. One is black, two are chrome, one is .72, two are .85, one is unmetered, two have meters, one has autoexposure, two don't... I could go on. I too match my "carry" to my mood; the MP when I am feeling contemplative and unhurried, the M7 when I want to be able to react to rapidly changing conditions, the M2 just for the sheer intellectual and physical pleasure of using a camera that is capable of superlative results if you are capable of using it right. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted April 8, 2011 Share #38 Posted April 8, 2011 with all due respect, it is not exactly clear to me how the m2 can garner results any more superior than the mp or m7. they are all physical units opening a shutter at the same speed to let in light -- from there it is the lens (i am assume you are using the same lenses on each) and the film. the m7 vs the others i understand from a speed standpoint and there the reliance on the metering for auto exposure. m2 vs mp? difference in the meter you hold vs the one in the camera? couldn't you simply take your meter with you when you shoot with the mp relay on the external meter and get the same results as with the m2? i remember years ago shooting the same film all the time and being able to just look at a scene and get the f/stop speed correct. a skill buried for now. the only difference between the m6 and mp that makes any sense to me is that people say the mp has a more sensitive internal meter. then again, i will say in regard to your m2 comment, if something feels very comfortable in your hands there is a connection that makes the shot better. holds true for golf clubs as well. but that is between the ears not in the build of the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted April 8, 2011 Share #39 Posted April 8, 2011 It's not that the results - the "destination" are any more superior, it is the extent to which the process - the "journey" becomes more pleasurable. As pilots say, if it looks right, it will fly right. The M7 does a lot of it for you. The MP does some of it for you, The M2 does none of it for you. All can produce an identical image, given the same film and the same glass; they are all light-tight metal boxes with vertical-run cloth shutters, after all, but how much of you is in each image varies. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted April 8, 2011 Share #40 Posted April 8, 2011 Hi The budget is M4-2 cheapest M2, (& M4-P somewhere here) M4 M6 M7 MP If we ignore budget a user M2 is just nicer, brass gears, shutter release, chipped vulcanite everything, i.e. sensual. If you style needs a compelling meter that is sad really, just dont try a M2 in the shop, they extrude superglue. If you use IXMOO, late M6 need a replacement baseplate latch, M7 and MP cannot use. If you are cold you will get a M4-2, and give money to charity Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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