Trade my Mamiya 7II System for a Second M9?

[Guest mc_k]

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tell me again why there will never be a digital 7 for the lenses, is it just physically impossible?

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Jeff S]

 

Is the S2 in your arsenal, or are you just trying to torture yourself?

 

I had one on loan for a three week evaluation period in the Spring. It is an incredible system without a doubt, but for the application I was interested in (landscape), I am awaiting tilt/shift lenses before fully buying in.

 

 

Sorry to go a bit OT, but have you ever tried or considered one of the high end Canons with their latest tilt/shifts for this purpose? Not S2 caliber, no doubt for large prints, but not S2 price.

 

Jeff

[BerndReini]

Toyo VX 125. Light, 4x5 negative (or positive), and tilts and shifts to your heart's desire.

[adan]

tell me again why there will never be a digital 7 for the lenses, is it just physically impossible?

 

Impossible? No. But there is a long row to hoe.

 

1. Largest sensor in a commercially available digital camera so far barely (if one squints a little) reaches the dimensions of 645, let alone 6x7 (53.6 x 40mm Dalsa in a Phase One P65+). Canon has demoed an 8" x 8" (202 x 205 mm) sensor Canon but has not commercialized it yet. And it is "only" 120 Mpixels - aimed more at low light use and video rather than maximizing the pixel count. Less than 6x the resolution of a 5D2 sensor even though it is 40x the area - i.e, a crop out of it to 35mm size would be 3 Mpixels.

 

(Note that the P65+ back alone prices out at $36,000 - still want a digital full 6x7 if it's, say, $75,000?)

 

2. As with the M8, a "645-cropped" sensor would require revised framelines or accesory finders, and would reduce the wideness of the Mam7 lenses, compared to the format they were designed to cover. But should be cheaper - under $20,000, maybe even down to $14,000, depending how many they can sell.

 

3. And the wider Mam7 lenses would also run into the old angle-of-incidence issues on full 6x7 digital (red edge, vignetting - the same stuff Leica has had to deal with with the digital Ms). Hassy warns against using the 38 Biogons of the SWC cameras on their newer, rectangular 39/50 CFV backs due to "optical incomptability."

 

Ultimately it comes down to the same issues Epson and Leica have faced - is the rangefinder market in any format big ENOUGH to make the investment worthwhile?

[jplomley]

Sorry to go a bit OT, but have you ever tried or considered one of the high end Canons with their latest tilt/shifts for this purpose?

 

Used to shoot Canon digital with the 24/45/90 TSE lenses and just did not get along with a CMOS sensor. So I switched to an Arca Swiss 4x5 F-Field camera with MicroOrbix and started drum scanning my chromes and negs.

 

Andy is spot-on with regards to the challenges for a Mamiya 7D. I'm sure Mamiya has given this considerable thought and when the engineering challenges were weighed against the potential market share, they abandoned all aspirations.

[Guest mc_k]

Impossible? No. But there is a long row to hoe.

 

1. Largest sensor in a commercially available digital camera so far barely (if one squints a little) reaches the dimensions of 645, let alone 6x7 (53.6 x 40mm Dalsa in a Phase One P65+). Canon has demoed an 8" x 8" (202 x 205 mm) sensor Canon but has not commercialized it yet. And it is "only" 120 Mpixels - aimed more at low light use and video rather than maximizing the pixel count. Less than 6x the resolution of a 5D2 sensor even though it is 40x the area - i.e, a crop out of it to 35mm size would be 3 Mpixels.

 

(Note that the P65+ back alone prices out at $36,000 - still want a digital full 6x7 if it's, say, $75,000?)

 

2. As with the M8, a "645-cropped" sensor would require revised framelines or accesory finders, and would reduce the wideness of the Mam7 lenses, compared to the format they were designed to cover. But should be cheaper - under $20,000, maybe even down to $14,000, depending how many they can sell.

 

3. And the wider Mam7 lenses would also run into the old angle-of-incidence issues on full 6x7 digital (red edge, vignetting - the same stuff Leica has had to deal with with the digital Ms). Hassy warns against using the 38 Biogons of the SWC cameras on their newer, rectangular 39/50 CFV backs due to "optical incomptability."

 

Ultimately it comes down to the same issues Epson and Leica have faced - is the rangefinder market in any format big ENOUGH to make the investment worthwhile?

 

Thanks, I keep thinking about this since the M9 came out. Of course I don't want 6 X 7, just something larger than the M9. I have no idea what limit on size the lenses impose, so I keep thinking about it. They have really brought prices down with the latest back.

[adan]

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"I have no idea what limit on size the lenses impose, so I keep thinking about it."

 

The original Hassy CFV had a 37mm x 37mm sensor (~1.5x crop) and didn't have the warning regarding the 38 Biogon, so presumably that size performed safely even with a short-focus rangefinder-style lens. Of course, a 1.5x crop turns the Mamiya 43mm into a 65mm (and square at that), so good-bye serious wideangle shooting.

 

1.5x crop with the 43/50/65/80 Mam7 lenses would come out "65/75/98/120mm" - reasonably workable in the M7II finder - but do those lenses actually all have the right keying to bring up different framelines (since 2 of them are designed for external finders)? Leica only had to deal with one oddball lens with the M8 as regards revising the framelines (24mm).

 

Realistically, Mamiya is now majority-owned and controlled by PhaseOne, so it will be up to PO to decide if there is a digital future for the Mamiya MF/RF cameras.

[jplomley]

Just a quick update.....I placed an order with my dealer yesterday and the second M9 should arrive the week of the January 17th. That should give me some time to ensure proper functioning before I head to Cuba on February 7th for three weeks....risky, I know. But I will be taking the Mamiya 7II as well :-)

[robola]

As an owner of an M6, M8 and a Mamiya 7II, I agree with the collective comments regarding the intrinsic qualities of the latter for B&W. I'm curious whether this collective opinion also includes scanned negatives with inkjet output or solely traditional wet darkroom prints?

[jplomley]

My negs are scanned on a Nikon 9000 ED for preview purposes/draft print. Once I'm confident I have a winner, I will scan on an Imacon X5, Creo iQ3, or Heidelberg Tango drum depending on the size of the print and as a function of film speed. For example, 400ISO B&W always look best oil mounted, whereas a dry mounted CCD scan is more than sufficient for 100ISO speed emulsions such as Acros and TMax (or Ilford Delta 100 reverse processed to a transparency). I then will print on an Epson using K3 inks. I'm just finishing up a last batch of Harman Gloss FB Al and then I will need to find a suitable replacement as apparently the Hahnemuhle version has been reported as inferior. I'm hearing very good things about the Epson Exhibition Fibre, so perhaps that is worth a try.

Edited December 22, 2010 by jplomley

[Jeff S]

I have gotten wonderful b/w results using Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta and Photo Rag Pearl (both gloss). Less expensive to experiment with these than Epson Exhibition. YMMV.

 

Jeff

[jplomley]

Thanks for the suggestions Jeff. I typically proof my prints on Epson Premium Lustre, then rip the final image on the good stuff.

[danlindberg]

jplomley, great photography on your site, I have had an unhurried look and will be coming back

[jplomley]

Dan, many thanks for the feedback on the website. I would like to extend the same compliment to your blog. Inspiration indeed! Best wishes for the holiday season.

[robola]

Hi Jeff-- Re Mamiya 7II for B&W--thanks for your detailed and knowledgeable response regarding scanning. At the risk of derailing the thread, I would also be most appreciative of what you have learned regarding printing. I know at one time Cone Editions and perhaps others had specific ink sets for B&W printing, but with the evolution of ink jet printers and expanded ink sets, I would like to know what would be an optimal printer/inkset/and possible software ( ImagePrint?) for this application? Thanks/Merry Christmas/Healthy and Prosperous New Year/Safe Travels.

[NZDavid]

Some excellent landscapes in the latest issue of Arizona Highways. One photographer, Jack Dykinga, said he used a Nikon D3X in the vertical orientation and stitched together 11 exposures to give him an image rivalling 4x5. A novel concept, I thought.

[dickgrafixstop]

You won't want/need the M7 until two days after you sell it.

[jplomley]

Exactly why I flipped some other Leica gear to cover most of the cost of a second M9. The Mamiya 7 is only surpassed by large format, and even then just slightly nudged (by 4x5). I made the mistake once of selling the Mamiya, and I won't do that again.

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Hallo,

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[jplomley]

Just a quick update, I received the second M9 on Saturday, and for the most part everything is o.k. The shutter is quieter than that of my first body, but the release a bit stiffer. I'm sure that will improve with use. The meters in each body are in perfect agreement. But there are some oddities. The 75 Cron Asph which focuses perfectly on my first body front focuses considerably on the new body. My 21 Elmarit Asph, 35 Cron Asph, and 50 Cron (latest version) function perfectly on both bodies at all distances. The 28 Cron Asph seems to have a fair amount of back-focus at mid-range. I'm not really sure how to rationalize the behaviour of the 28 and 75 Crons on the new body given the fact that the 21/35/50 perform perfectly on both units. If all my lenses were out on the new body, than clearly there would be a calibration issue. But this is not the case. Any speculation/experience from the experts?

[deirdre]

I so regret selling my Mamiya 6 that I think I'd try to find a way to do both. I've decided to get a Zeiss 6x6 folder to keep the form factor small, but I will always miss that Mamiya.