flash frustration - SF24D

[menos I M6]

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I bought a SF24D, to extend my flash work to having a small, light TTL flash for easy and quick fill flash or the usual needed fill, when going out of light.

 

I used my M8.2 already with my Nikon flashes in M and A modes with absolute satisfaction.

 

I expected the following:

- SF24D will read ISO values from camera setting - OK

- SF24D will expose correctly, when in AE mode with camera (if not shooting @ ISO2500 and f1.4 in daylight of course) -not OK

 

The flash will either constantly over expose (dark room - why would the flash overexpose ?).

or:

The flash will give the usual direct nuking cheap flash holiday shot from aunty and uncle - baahhh!

 

I am completely lost - don't know, where to start at all.

My Nikon flashes work bliss on the M8.2 - everything as expected. I can balance ambient beautifully against flash output, …

 

I decided in the shop for the SF24D against the SF58D, because I felt, the light and compact flash will be a better addition, as I have a Nikon SB600 and SB900 already.

 

This looks, to be a big mistake. I deeply, deeply regret, to have bought this piece of @#$%^!

 

So venting is over - sorry… this had to go some place.

I will pack the thing, grab the camera (without flash) and go shooting - darn it!

[lars_bergquist]

I am a bit puzzled by your posting. I have been using the SF24D for two years now, first on a M8 and now on a M9, with full satisfaction. So I suspect that you are doing something wrong.

 

Let's go through the drill from the beginning:

 

• Camera off, flash off, slide flash into accessory shoe.

• Camera on at AUTO or manual speed of 1/180 or slower.

• Flash on at TTL/GNC. Touch the shutter release, and the flash will show a flash distance (m or ft.) and an aperture value which is the one the max distance is valid for. If the green ready light is on, the finder will show a flash ready signal too. You are ready to go.

 

A couple of checks you can do now:

• Touch the ISO button. The display should show the ISO as set in camera.

• Move the mode button to A. The display should not change.

• Hold aperture button in while stepping the working aperture up or down with the +/– keys. Note that this set aperture is ignored in TTL/GNC mode. We'll ignore Manual for now.

• Fit the wide angle or tele accessory, and see the flash distance change accordingly.

 

If this works, then the flash works as specified. I use on-camera flash nearly exclusively for filll flash which works very well. You can use flash compensation (+– triangle/P key, and the + and _keys) to regulate the level of fill. But mostly I use the flash at the end of a "system" cable (Nikon or Nissin) for directed or bounce flash. Both work well on TTL/GNC in normal-size rooms, unless you insist on using ISO160 only.

 

Just remember to touch the shutter release lightly so that you actually see the red flash signal in the finder, before you press it home for release. Not checking the flash ready signal is pretty well the only mistake you can make in TTL mode.

 

The old man from the Age of Flash Powder

[menos I M6]

I am a bit puzzled by your posting. I have been using the SF24D for two years now, first on a M8 and now on a M9, with full satisfaction. So I suspect that you are doing something wrong.

 

Let's go through the drill from the beginning:

 

…

The old man from the Age of Flash Powder

 

Lars, thanks a lot, to pick me up on this.

Everything, you describe works, as described.

 

Now to the issue:

 

Why is the flash over exposing severely, all the time, when shooting in dark environments?

 

I want to use the flash, to lift my exposure in a very dark room from ISO2500, f1.4, 1/15 with fill flash.

 

In every mode, the flash is severely over exposing. To my understanding, when I set the camera and flash completely into dummy mode (AE, AutoISO, TTL flash), I should at least get no overexposure?

 

This is beyond me.

 

I can take the SF24D off, take a SB600 instead in A or M mode, dial in exactly the same exposure, fill with the flash, and everything works beautifully.

 

I can balance ambient with flash.

 

The Leica flash always seems to badly over expose. I don't get it.

[gravastar]

I'm not sure if this is your problem, but using the SF24D for fill flash has also given me over exposure. As far as I could tell the cause was:

 

For fill flash the amount of light (intensity x time) needed is small, particularly at high ISO and large apertures. The flash electronics is unable to quench the flash tube fast enough to give the reduced light output required for fill exposure. There is a minimum light output below which the flash will not go. If that's more than needed for the fill overexposure is the result. Most flashes control exposure by flash duration and not intensity.

 

Does the flash expose correctly if you choose a low ISO (160) and a small aperture (f5.6-8) for example. That should mean the flash duration is longer than the minimum allowing the electronics to quench the flash when the correct exposure has been reached.

 

I'm not sure if the SF24D is true TTL (I don't think it is) otherwise for fill I would have suggested putting various neutral density filters over the flash to see if you can get it to operate within it's control range. I no longer have the flash so can't try this.

 

Bob.

[pico]

[...]

I'm not sure if the SF24D is true TTL (I don't think it is) [...]

 

It has true TTL, providing the camera offers it. (M9, M8, M6 and TTL M6).

 

My best guess is that the flash is defective.

[bocaburger]

 

In every mode, the flash is severely over exposing.

 

I can take the SF24D off, take a SB600 instead in A or M mode, dial in exactly the same exposure, fill with the flash, and everything works beautifully.

 

 

In that case it sounds like a defective flash, and the way to check that would be to try another one known to be working properly. Although I don't understand how you can "dial in exactly the same exposure" in both A and M modes with the SB600 or any other flash for that matter.

[jaapv]

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Lars, thanks a lot, to pick me up on this.

Everything, you describe works, as described.

 

Now to the issue:

 

Why is the flash over exposing severely, all the time, when shooting in dark environments?

 

I want to use the flash, to lift my exposure in a very dark room from ISO2500, f1.4, 1/15 with fill flash.

 

In every mode, the flash is severely over exposing. To my understanding, when I set the camera and flash completely into dummy mode (AE, AutoISO, TTL flash), I should at least get no overexposure?

 

This is beyond me.

 

I can take the SF24D off, take a SB600 instead in A or M mode, dial in exactly the same exposure, fill with the flash, and everything works beautifully.

 

I can balance ambient with flash.

 

The Leica flash always seems to badly over expose. I don't get it.

It has an exposure settin + or -. Check it is not activated.

[wlaidlaw]

Are you using a UV/IR filter on your lenses. I found that on an M8, the SF-24D was reluctant to expose accurately without a filter. I don't know why this should be as I would assume that the TTL sensor is not particularly IR sensitive unlike the sensor or UV either. On the other hand I have found that the 24 tends to give both shut eyes from the pre-flash reaction or white faces. I got round this by using Leicagoodies SFIlL diffusor and often -1/3rd EV on flash. Now that I am using an SF58, for fill in, even using a Sto-Fen soft box, I find that -1/3 to 2/3rd EV is the best setting for TTL poor daylight fill in but that is on the M9.

 

I have generally found the M8 to be more accurate on flash exposures than my M9 with the SF58. I am not convinced by the grey circle on the shutter. The M7 did not need it, so why does the M9? I have also found that AWB is better for flash on the M8 than the M9. The flash fixed WB setting is poor but at least consistently poor. If you quickly need to show the out of camera JPEG's, this is a pain. I need to tweak the colour temperature of each room group of DNG's in C1 (now 6 pro) of my M9 shots, whereas I can get away without this in many shoots using the M8 and the out of camera JPEG's if you have printed them on site, are OK.

 

Wilson

[bocaburger]

It has an exposure settin + or -. Check it is not activated.

 

Good thing you thought about that, it escaped me altogether. Yes, it would surely cause the problem if it was set to "+".

[pico]

Are you using a UV/IR filter on your lenses. I found that on an M8, the SF-24D was reluctant to expose accurately without a filter. [...]

 

How very strange. Why not filter the flash instead?

 

I have generally found the M8 to be more accurate on flash exposures than my M9 with the SF58. I am not convinced by the grey circle on the shutter. [...]

 

TTL flash does not read off the shutter-dot. It uses a separate detector.

[ho_co]

Separate detectors, yes, but still reading the pre-flash reflected off the shutter blades, n’est-ce pas?

[pico]

Separate detectors, yes, but still reading the pre-flash reflected off the shutter blades, n’est-ce pas?

 

Je ne suis pas certain.

[Guest mc_k]

I bought a SF24D, to extend my flash work to having a small, light TTL flash for easy and quick fill flash or the usual needed fill, when going out of light.

 

I used my M8.2 already with my Nikon flashes in M and A modes with absolute satisfaction.

...

 

If you read the old postings, a good number of people find the flash better on the A or M setting.

[Jamie Roberts]

Remember too, that if you want the flash to only fill in ambient shadows, you should be setting it up to 3 stops under the ambient.

 

If you just put the flash on TTL and let the meter average the scene out, the flash will be your key light. The meter will try to render the average gray of the scene, and pump out light to make that happen.

 

So in a very dark room, in particular, that's going to blast your shadows and move exposure up quite a bit. It can't help but look flashy.

 

Canon TTL systems (less so Nikon) typically don't do this, especially on their pro bodies. They're very conservative with exposure values.

 

Try setting the flash 3 stops under if you think it's too bright and you just want to even out the shadows.

 

Also, remember if your shutter is very long) (for ambient) you are adding a lot of light potentially--even if you're freezing action with the flash.

 

Personally, I find all of this easier with manual flash settings, because then I can meter for the ambient in regard to a fixed flash output...

[menos I M6]

Wow, I am absolutely overwelmed by the help of you guys - thank you all very much for dragging me out of the flash hole !

 

After having had a good night sleep, I worked the thread through and had a 2 Leica M battery long flash test session this morning.

 

Everything is much clearer now.

 

The flash is not defective, everything works, as it should (I suppose).

The reason for my frustration yesterday were simply based on 1) my much higher expection on the flash's capabilities and it's rather high limitations regarding turning down flash output and handling.

 

You simply can't turn down the flash enough for fill, when not shooting from f5.6 through f16 during the day (this is quite limiting opposed to the Nikon flashes, which can be tuned in @ 1/64 or even 1/128 flash power + easily diffused and bounced, to get even lower light on your subject).

 

This limitation can not be stressed enough for everybody, wanting a small flash, just for filling. With the SF24D, you have to go "handicrafting" your exposures with filters, diffusors + off camera flash cords

 

For handling the flash, to quickly balance ambient vs flash fill, I found the proper operations after your great advices.

It looks to me, that a combination of full manual exposure setting in camera + TTL flash with flash exposure compensation is the quickest way to go handling wise.

 

It is far off though from working quickly with a Nikon SLR + Nikon flash -> this is fully new ground for me (flash + the huuuuge difference in handling flash between Leica M and Nikon).

 

I must say, that I really like the size weight and balance with the small flash. It doesn't hurt the camera at all (even left eye shooting is fine).

My favorite lenses handling wise are the 90 Cron + Noctilux - everything feels well balanced.

 

What I do not like at all after one half a day of shooting:

 

- button layout and setting of aperture + flash exp. compensation. This is really designed by an engineer for true two hands operation. I prefer, to make hand gymnastics and hold the appropriate button with my left index finger, while setting +/- with my left middle finger - very uncomfortable, but better than double button mashing the cheap, feel less gum buttons.

What about holding the button and setting with the camera's rear dial as a third option?

 

- the limitation of minimum flash output is really limiting and calls for gadgetry (you guys, grown up with GN settings, manual flash + gel + filters will have no trouble )

 

- who had the brilliant idea, to have in each flash mode different increments of setting aperture and exposure compensation - this is madness and kills every fluent workflow between flash mode?!

 

- why is in some modes exposure compensation capped into one direction - I am hitting a wall during operation a lot?

 

- why does the flash reset exposure comp. every time, the flash is switched off? This way, I have to reset exp. comp. back to a standard of −2ev, I switch the flash on (it works very nice, to start metering the camera with the flash off, switching it on after having set an exposure ~ −1 or two stops and then adding fill)

 

- why can't the exp. comp. and aperture be constantly displayed on such a huge display?

 

- is it correct, that the display is not illuminated or is my flash defective ?

 

I am at the moment 60:40, to keep the flash (although likely very little use) to swapping it for a SF58 (although I fear similar sever handling issues, it might share with the SF24D interface - I didn't like the menu and setting a lot).

 

It might be, I am expecting too much here.

For now, it's a very, very expensive, little used compact, direct flash (basically an Nikon SB400 with integrated controls for triple the price and missing movable head).

[lars_bergquist]

I am not convinced by the grey circle on the shutter. The M7 did not need it, so why does the M9?

Wilson

The M9 does not have a grey circle on the shutter. It has a white lamella, and a grey lamella on each side. The M7, like the M6 and the MP has a white circle on the first curtain. You don't see it of course unless the shutter is tensioned. The M6/M7/MP meter ambient light from it. The M7, like the M6TTL, has traditional TTL flash, metering the light reflected from the film. The M8 and M9 meter a pre-flash reflected from the shutter.

 

It is sometimes enlightening to take a look inside the shutter box.

 

The old man from the Age of Flashpowder

[wlaidlaw]

The M9 does not have a grey circle on the shutter. It has a white lamella, and a grey lamella on each side. The M7, like the M6 and the MP has a white circle on the first curtain. You don't see it of course unless the shutter is tensioned. The M6/M7/MP meter ambient light from it. The M7, like the M6TTL, has traditional TTL flash, metering the light reflected from the film. The M8 and M9 meter a pre-flash reflected from the shutter.

 

It is sometimes enlightening to take a look inside the shutter box.

 

The old man from the Age of Flashpowder

 

Lars,

 

I had looked inside the boxes but it was some time ago, other than with the shutter open for sensor cleaning. I looked inside an M7 recently so that had confused my thinking. You are of course, correct that it is a painted strip on the digital M's. I was trying to think of a reason why the M8 should seem to give more accurate flash exposures across the whole frame than I have been getting with the M9. The only reason I could think of was the grey strips on either side of the white strip. As the M9 works well across the whole frame in daylight, I assume these grey strips are doing their job. Maybe accurate flash exposure was, quite understandably, a secondary consideration. I have been expecting a firmware upgrade for the SF58-D, since mine was one of the first ones in the UK, to improve exposure, particularly on TTL but nothing has been forthcoming. This was one of the selling points of the 58, that it had upgradable firmware but maybe this is Metz's responsibility. On TTL/bounce indoors, I find nearly every photo needs the exposure tweaking up or down on conversion of the DNG's, as well as the colour temperature for each room group. The wider the lens, the worse it is. On direct (non-bounce) flash outdoors, the exposures are generally pretty good but A mode still works better than TTL, if you taking things at a distance, where the pre-flash struggles to reach.

 

Wilson

[gravastar]

There was something I forgot to mention about the flash and it's use for fill. If I remember correctly under some conditions of high ISO and large aperture the exposure given by the pre-flash is in itself more than required for the fill. So that can be another cause of over exposure. As the main flash reduces in duration the exposure contibuted by the pre-flash becomes more significant. I don't know if the SF24D takes this into account.

 

Bob.

[Nicoleica]

There was something I forgot to mention about the flash and it's use for fill. If I remember correctly under some conditions of high ISO and large aperture the exposure given by the pre-flash is in itself more than required for the fill. So that can be another cause of over exposure. As the main flash reduces in duration the exposure contibuted by the pre-flash becomes more significant. I don't know if the SF24D takes this into account.

 

Bob.

 

Please excuse me if I'm suffering from premature brain death here, but isn't the shutter still closed during the pre-flash, and so it cannot effect the actual photograph at all? (Apart from startling the subject of course. )

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[gravastar]

Please excuse me if I'm suffering from premature brain death here, but isn't the shutter still closed during the pre-flash, and so it cannot effect the actual photograph at all? (Apart from startling the subject of course. )

No Nicole, you're not brain dead I am .......and it's way too early to use the excuse of too much turkey and wine .

 

You're correct, the shutter has to be closed during the pre-flash for the exposure sensor to be able to read the pre-flash light relected from the paint on the front of the shutter blades. My problem must have been that the minimum output of the main flash was always more than needed for the fill.

 

Bob.