Not to start rumors...

[wda]

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a 35 lux would be nice

Perhaps an M8/9 might be the answer. Both cameras are quite compact. Personally I think the X1 is an ideal compromise between compactness, bulk and performance. Any bigger lens would move it into a different league.

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[Sausalito]

I like hearing all this "possible stuff" but my reason for buying an x1 is that it is pocket sized and has a big sensor.

 

If the zoom made it any larger at all, I would lose interest. This camera is pretty much the absolute max you can put in any pants pocket... if it gets any larger, you are pretty much into "jacket pocket " size and you are likely better off with a small sized SLR.

 

Not to say I wouldn't look

 

tom

[jankap]

I like hearing all this "possible stuff" but my reason for buying an x1 is that it is pocket sized and has a big sensor.

 

If the zoom made it any larger at all, I would lose interest. This camera is pretty much the absolute max you can put in any pants pocket... if it gets any larger, you are pretty much into "jacket pocket " size and you are likely better off with a small sized SLR.

 

Not to say I wouldn't look

 

tom

 

This is my opinion too. But the optic engineers are getting more and more degrees of freedom in the design. The Panasonic pancake seems to be "eine Wucht" and is very, very small. So we can expect more good things from the Leica factories. And good may cost more, isn't it?

A interesting question stays. Is there room for a Leica X-model with a EVF connector, interchangeable lenses and internal AF? I mean besides the M8, M9. Should the (market) price have to be placed above the M9?

Jan

[h00ligan]

The x1 wouldn't be an x1 if it offered lens changing.

[jankap]

The x1 wouldn't be an x1 if it offered lens changing.

 

I agree, that is difficult. For instance, because of the shutter.

So another family to start, which letter is still free?

Jan

[h00ligan]

R?

 

I wonder though..many camera makers have their 'pro' ff line..but also interchangeable consumer line..or a prosumer line.

 

Wonder if they considered an aspc digital rangefinder. The issue is, there aren't enough 'bells and whistles' which are relied upon to set lines apart..not like more autofocus points and faster af could be selling points!

[jankap]

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R?

 

I wonder though..many camera makers have their 'pro' ff line..but also interchangeable consumer line..or a prosumer line.

 

Wonder if they considered an aspc digital rangefinder. The issue is, there aren't enough 'bells and whistles' which are relied upon to set lines apart..not like more autofocus points and faster af could be selling points!

 

"R" should not come! Have you seen the prices for R-lenses? A bitter chapter.

But Apple cancelled the SCSI interface over night too.

 

Do you think rangefinders have a future?

Would it make sense to have a focus indicator instead of AF? I mean for M and R lenses on a digital body (EVIL). "Bling" means the focus area is sharp, but there was no motor drive involved. Lenses would not need to have expensive rangefinder couplings.

 

Rangefinder means the photographer is responsible. In case of the minor dof of a Noktilux perhaps the only solution today.

Jan

[gar1013]

Wonder if they considered an aspc digital rangefinder. The issue is, there aren't enough 'bells and whistles' which are relied upon to set lines apart..not like more autofocus points and faster af could be selling points!

 

It'd make far more business sense to simply sell M8s at $4500, splitting the difference between the M8 and M9. Developing a new aps-c rangefinder would simply create development costs whereas the M8 should already have the development costs amortized.

 

The problem with the above scenario then becomes the issue of the known M8 shortcomings that would remain unaddressed. Also, there's the calculus between cannibalization of existing M9 sales versus the incremental upsells from an X1.

 

Bottom line is that any proposed ideas have to make business sense as well as photographic sense.

[jankap]

For your info, I have found the following prices.

X1: 1500 Euro

M8: 4300 Euro

M8.2: 5300 Euro (!)

M9: 5500 Euro

Jan

[h00ligan]

Yes but any new m8(.2) are new old stock, they aren't making them still afaik.

[jsrockit]

Given the number of people that seem to think that a zoom lens is the way to go, but have bought an X1 anyways, how could there not be cannibalization / alienation?

 

X1 sales are made up of people that either like having a fixed focal length, or those who are willing to put up with not having a zoom in exchange for the image quality.

 

If Leica were to introduce a zoom X1, a few things would happen: 1) They'd look like a bunch of liars given that they stated that they weren't willing to make the quality compromise on the X1 that goes with a zoom. 2) A fairly sizeable percentage of potential X1 purchasers would go ahead and get the zoom version. 3) Some recent purchasers of the fixed focal length who prefer the zoom would sell their X1s on the second hand market, potentially creating enough of a price differential between new and nearly new to siphon off a significant amount of sales from Leica.

 

 

Ok, first of all, we are talking about a niche camera. Therefore, the number of potential customers isn't too large anyway. I also think you underestimate the number of people who prefer a prime lens to zooms in the Leica world. Sure, some might prefer it, but many, such as myself, love the fact that it does not have a zoom. If it had a zoom, I would not buy it.

 

In the past, Leica introduces the zoom version after the fixed lens version's sales have stabilized (and perhaps even deminished). I would imagine Leica also doesn't mass produce these cameras, so they wouldn't get stuck with excess inventory. There is room for both and I've given you several past examples as to them doing it in the past e.g. Minilux / Minilux Zoom, CM / CM Zoom, etc.

[gar1013]

There is room for both and I've given you several past examples as to them doing it in the past e.g. Minilux / Minilux Zoom, CM / CM Zoom, etc.

 

And any compact zoom camera with a Leica name on it will be manufactured by Panasonic. Again, no room for both REAL Leica's with zooms and Panasonic ones.

[jankap]

Dear gar1013

Please read the posts about the Dlux2. This zoom camera circles around the X1, etc., if you believe them (the posts). This is an f/2 zoom of a high quality with a small sensor camera. The Dlux-4 for its class has an excellent zoom lens.

Personally I prefer fixed lenses. For a long time my favorite was my EOS 24 f1.4.

I suppose, that a lens with Leica on its barrel is designed (not manufactured) by Leica. If Leica opens a design laboratory in Kosovo, the same requirements have to be fulfilled. The manufacturing could be in Vietnam. The Leica standards stay, I hope so at least.

Jan

[gar1013]

Dear gar1013

Please read the posts about the Dlux2. This zoom camera circles around the X1, etc., if you believe them (the posts). This is an f/2 zoom of a high quality with a small sensor camera. The Dlux-4 for its class has an excellent zoom lens.

 

Look at my last post. The only zooms you'll see anywhere near the X1 in price would be made by Panasonic. Which the Digilux 2 was. Which the DLux-4 was. Which the DLux-5 is.

 

You want a compact Leica* zoom? It's the DLux-5. (* = made by Panasonic)

 

Why would Leica muddy the waters by developing a zoom camera that would be produced by Leica that would compete with the X1? The only compact zoom camera you will see from Leica will be a Panasonic.

[jsrockit]

And any compact zoom camera with a Leica name on it will be manufactured by Panasonic. Again, no room for both REAL Leica's with zooms and Panasonic ones.

 

Huh? So you choose to ignore Leica's history of making real Leica compacts with zooms shortly after the version with a prime lens?

[jsrockit]

Why would Leica muddy the waters by developing a zoom camera that would be produced by Leica that would compete with the X1? The only compact zoom camera you will see from Leica will be a Panasonic.

 

Why wouldn't they? If you are correct, then so many people are not buying the X1 because it doesn't have a zoom. In order to get those potential buyers, Leica can bring out an X1 zoom which will not compete with a fixed prime camera. You either like zooms or you do not. No competition. I think you are assuming that most people are settling when buying the X1 and wished it really had a zoom. I can tell you, many of us like the fact that it does not have a zoom.

[h00ligan]

I find that when I have zooms I forget they zoom, lol. I'd be interested but it has to at least match the x1 iq...I guess I'm a prime fan.

 

I'd like to see an x2 with ff sensor tbh. Keep it as is,(with fw improvements to come) up the sensor size..technically a challenge right now but to me a better advancement than zoom.

 

If my x1 comes back corrected I'd think I'll keep it until it dies..so maybe ff with a 50mm and a portrait version. I know, I should just buy an m9 and lenses..just saying!

[gar1013]

Why wouldn't they? If you are correct, then so many people are not buying the X1 because it doesn't have a zoom. In order to get those potential buyers, Leica can bring out an X1 zoom which will not compete with a fixed prime camera. You either like zooms or you do not. No competition. I think you are assuming that most people are settling when buying the X1 and wished it really had a zoom. I can tell you, many of us like the fact that it does not have a zoom.

 

No, what I'm saying is that there are some people who buy the X1 despite the fact that it lacks a zoom. When you add those people to the people who would buy a zoom X1, you wouldn't have enough of a user base to offset development costs at any reasonable price. At the same time, you'd have enough cannibalization to harm development of future fixed prime X-series cameras.

 

Bifurcation of the X series to zoom and fixed focal length doesn't make business sense. Zooms will be left to Panasonic to manufacture and occasionally brand with the Leica name.

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[jsrockit]

Bifurcation of the X series to zoom and fixed focal length doesn't make business sense. Zooms will be left to Panasonic to manufacture and occasionally brand with the Leica name.

 

Despite the fact that I've given you evidence to the contrary in the Minilux and CM.

 

To me, you are either a zoom user or a fixed focal length user. Sure, some zoom fans bought the X1, but not many. Again we are talking about a niche product that is built in limited supply, not a mass produced camera with thousands of units in a warehouse.

[gar1013]

Despite the fact that I've given you evidence to the contrary in the Minilux and CM.

 

To me, you are either a zoom user or a fixed focal length user. Sure, some zoom fans bought the X1, but not many. Again we are talking about a niche product that is built in limited supply, not a mass produced camera with thousands of units in a warehouse.

 

The Minilux was not made by Leica: Leica Minilux

 

Explain to me why Leica would develop a compact zoom camera that's not a Panasonic at this point in time. There's no business case for it. The DLux-5 and the VLux-2 are both adequate for the zoom crowd. Furthermore, introducing an X1 zoom would require significant development expenditures, as opposed to changing the focal length - which would far less in development costs.

 

A longer focal length equivalent to the X1 does have precendent in the Sigma DP2. It's also entirely conceivable that someone would own multiple X1s in different focal lengths, as witnessed by the Sigma DP experience.