Bellows II, 16598J & 280mm Telyt

[luigi bertolotti]

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Surely.... neither I wanted to start a new argument about the subtle differences between V3s...

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello,

 

Thank you everybody. This is very interesting.

 

I think prior to the introduction of M lenses there were only knurled lenses. Dimpling began w/ knurl on peak - smooth dimple which became knurl in dimple - smooth peak which became plain knurl again later. Some lenses such as 11123 M mount pre-set 90mm Summicron #1740767 (1960) combined all variations in one lens. I think dimpling was only done to SM & M lenses. Not to Reflex or CL lenses.

 

I think the phase out of dimples began in the second half of the 1960s and was more or less completed by the middle of the 1970s.

 

Altho I understand that cost constraints worldwide in all aspects of life & in all industries from the mid sixties to the mid seventies set the foundation for today's economic situation which in turn determined among other things the end of dimples w/ knurls @ Leitz. I have none the less always preferred them both ergonometrically & esthetically.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited November 24, 2010 by Michael Geschlecht

[david werbeloff]

Hello, All,

 

OK here is a photo of the lens head, not anywhere near the quality of JC's beautiful photographs. I added some annotation to try and clarify things. Here goes...

 

Best,

David

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[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello David,

 

Well, it seems we have solved all of the problems of all of the versions of all of the 280mm Leitz lenses in the entire world except for yours. Perhaps we should refocus.

 

BTW: Nice photo. Please don't be so overly self-critical.

 

So. Here is what we know:

 

The lens head of your 11914 version III mounts directly into the bellows w/o 16598 listed in misprint on p 70 of 1973 factory catalogs in French, German & English.

 

Your lens head has a 33mm collar not shown elsewhere as far as anyone knows which probably needs to be removed before we can screw what is now an 11904 into a bellows II directly. This collar, in place since @ least the 1970s is reluctant to move. What to do?

 

One of the things I do for a living is repair old clocks. The camera business grew directly out of the 19th Century clock business so there are many parallels.

 

To begin w/ before we get into trouble. Please keep in mind w/ your recalcitrant collar: Fine precision machines are like people. If you are forcing them you are probably doing something wrong. Do not underestimate the importance of that statement please. Next - The only thing I see more problems with than too much force when people try to fix their own clocks before they bring them to me is when people oil their own clocks.

 

Two good rules to begin w/ if you are going to fix your own lens: Don't force it & don't oil it.

 

Just as I often tell people not to CLA their cameras & lenses too often. Unnecessary cleaning shortens the lifespan (yes, Leitz/Leica products do have lifespanns) and doesen't add to servicability of good quality clocks, watches, cameras or lenses. Better to take them out & operate everything on them a number of times once a month or so. These are all Samoyeds. They enjoy occasionally being couch potatos but they are born to work and function @ their best working. Perhaps the reason your 33mm collar is reluctant to leave its nest.

 

Now I have to temporarily pause to go for healthcare. I have treatment every nite & every morning 7 days a week & must leave home now to catch the last bus. I live in a place where public transportation is designed and operated to convince people to buy a car.

 

Talk to you soon.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[luigi bertolotti]

Thanks, David !!!

Now all is clear... that strange 33mm ring clearly is fitted to the large thread (the one that fits directly into the Bellows)... so, when the lens is complete, the lenshead screws into the focus unit through the OTHER thread, which is of the "16598" type.

Ok... I give up to Michael as for advices on how to remove it... he's surely a better mechanical than me ; but as a passionate lover of old Leitz gear and their complex history, I'm definitely puzzled... that ring is clearly "factory original"... a question for you : when you re-mount the lens head, how is the exterior surface of the ring in respect to the inner surface of the focusing mount ? I mean, is it IN CONTACT, or even a bit FORCED into, or on the contrary there is a bit of spacing ?

 

Another question should be made, once more, to the "Godfather" JC : the "normal" 280 V3 like yours (to say, without "David's collar") clearly does not engage the small ("16598 type") thread when the lens is complete... it engages the large thread... but has anyway the focusing mount a female thread into it ?

 

I thought to joke when wrote "start a new argument about the subtle differences between V3s" ... and now here's the possibility we discover that another variant of V3 does exist

 

Just to add some illustration... I just discovered that Newoldcamera of Milano has for sale a 280 V3 lenshead.... here's a pic of the item (which appears to have fitted the Televit adapter)

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Edited November 24, 2010 by luigi bertolotti

[jc_braconi]

Hello, All,

 

OK here is a photo of the lens head, not anywhere near the quality of JC's beautiful photographs. I added some annotation to try and clarify things. Here goes...

 

Best,

David

 

David,

this collar, sleeve is a more appropriate term, unscrewed from the "wrong part" : I mean it have to stay screwed on the focusing part.

Now you can unscrew it from the lens head :

wrap some large rubber rings around this collar and you will have a good grip to unscrew it anticlockwise.

If you got it,and before removing the rubber bands, screw it on the focusing part immediatly.

Enjoy !

Edited November 24, 2010 by jc_braconi

[david werbeloff]

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Hello, Gents,

 

I hope you're all sitting down!

 

Using JC's method of rubber bands, I removed that 33mm "sleeve" from the lens head. With the added torque available from the bands it came off very easily. No harm done. Beautiful, original grease inside. Took the Bellows II, and would you believe it, the lens head has a finer thread gauge than the Bellows! They won't engage.

I screwed the 33mm sleeve into the lens focus helical (which matches the 16598 thread), and tightened it down firmly. So, if I am to use the lens head on the Bellows II, I am obliged to use 16598.

 

At the end of this we have discovered that my lens is somehow a hybrid:.

I think we can assume that the Bellows is not the problem because both 16598 and 16558 fit that thread just fine.

 

In answer to your question Luigi, that 33mm sleeve fits within a similar sleeve on the helical with less than 1mm clearance all around.

 

These discoveries should not really be all that surprising: think of how many minor differences there are on early M3s for instance.

 

Best,

David

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

 

David - Jean Claude's advice sounds good to me. When attaching the 33mm sleeve to the focussing mount look into the mount (lighted) & making sure it is clean. Remember interior blackening coatings are for the most part very soft. Please don't overtighten. Make it snug, not overly tight. Overtightening is also often seen w/ old clocks. It can do damage & does not add to the parts' ability to stay together.

 

I think we are doing very well. It's interesting how a group of people working together can often solve an otherwise apparently unsolvable problem.

 

As someone once said to me, I don't remember who: 5 reasonable people can sit in the same chair & look @ the same apple & see very different things.

 

How are we doing?

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello David,

 

My Post above was just a little bit late. Congratulations.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[luigi bertolotti]

Hello, Gents,

 

I hope you're all sitting down!

 

Using JC's method of rubber bands, I removed that 33mm "sleeve" from the lens head. With the added torque available from the bands it came off very easily. No harm done. Beautiful, original grease inside. Took the Bellows II, and would you believe it, the lens head has a finer thread gauge than the Bellows! They won't engage.

I screwed the 33mm sleeve into the lens focus helical (which matches the 16598 thread), and tightened it down firmly. So, if I am to use the lens head on the Bellows II, I am obliged to use 16598.

 

At the end of this we have discovered that my lens is somehow a hybrid:.

I think we can assume that the Bellows is not the problem because both 16598 and 16558 fit that thread just fine.

 

In answer to your question Luigi, that 33mm sleeve fits within a similar sleeve on the helical with less than 1mm clearance all around.

 

These discoveries should not really be all that surprising: think of how many minor differences there are on early M3s for instance.

 

Best,

David

 

Fantastic... this thread is pure esoteric... I should have sworn that after removing the sleeve you 'd post a message with "EUREKA _ THANKS TO ALL !" HERE'S MY HEAD FITTED ONTO THE BELLOWS ! (pic - pic - pic ...)

 

So... of course in the meantime I ORDERED the V3 lenshead of my above post... they confirmed me it has a Televit adapter... I think that should I find a Televit adapter only, it would cost half the price of the above assembly... and haven't a V3... of course I'll see if the V2 focus unit fits the V3 head...... but I promise NOT to start a thread about...

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Again David,

 

Not necessarily a hybrid. Don't forget that p 70 of the 1973 dealer catalog in 3 languages says the 16598 is the appropriate adapter. Perhaps you have one of a number of versions. You are right in saying there are many hybrids made during model change periods of manufactured items. It is so in many fields. They reflect things such as availability of parts, changes in concepts of how to make "A" become "B" as well as what "B" actually should be.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[david werbeloff]

Hello, Michael Luigi & JC,

 

Thank you for your collective input. This has been a most interesting journey of discovery, certainly for me, but I hope you three and all the others who viewed this thread!

 

One last discovery... The small thread that matches the 16598 adapter has a 6mm spacer collar that presumably is necessary to make sure that the lens head and focus helical line up correctly for the focal length of that particular lens. This needs to be removed to provide a secure mount for the 16598, otherwise there are not enough threads engaged.

 

Best,

David

[jc_braconi]

it, the lens head has a finer thread gauge than the Bellows! They won't engage.

 

David, can you tell me, please what is the diameter on the thread of the lens head ?

[david werbeloff]

Hello, JC,

 

I presume you mean the large diameter thread immediately proximal to the aperture control ring which is supposed to engage with the Bellows II.

 

I don't have calipers or thread gauge here, but with a rule, the thread is +/- 64mm in diameter. The pitch of the thread looks to be about 1.5 threads/mm.

 

Best,

David

[luigi bertolotti]

Hello, Michael Luigi & JC,

 

Thank you for your collective input. This has been a most interesting journey of discovery, certainly for me, but I hope you three and all the others who viewed this thread!

 

One last discovery... The small thread that matches the 16598 adapter has a 6mm spacer collar that presumably is necessary to make sure that the lens head and focus helical line up correctly for the focal length of that particular lens. This needs to be removed to provide a secure mount for the 16598, otherwise there are not enough threads engaged.

 

Best,

David

 

Do you mean THIS ?

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Monday evening I'll have this in my hands... ... I expect a pleasant session of small discoveries... and, on the user side, I hope that the 280+Televit combo will prove a fine set to use on my M8... I'm just thinking of the UVIR filter issue...series VIII, but needs a ring...

[jc_braconi]

Hello, JC,

 

I presume you mean the large diameter thread immediately proximal to the aperture control ring which is supposed to engage with the Bellows II.

 

I don't have calipers or thread gauge here, but with a rule, the thread is +/- 64mm in diameter. The pitch of the thread looks to be about 1.5 threads/mm.

 

Best,

David

 

Yes it is exactly 63.9, same diameter as the 16558 adaptor for the 4/90 - 2.8/90 - 3.5/65 lens head and the pitch is the same.

SO try again, keep lens head and bellows II vertical, to engage the threads first turn slowly anticlockwise as you feel that is a little down step, turn clockwise.

It MUST work.

Edited November 25, 2010 by jc_braconi

[jc_braconi]

One last discovery... The small thread that matches the 16598 adapter has a 6mm spacer collar that presumably is necessary to make sure that the lens head and focus helical line up correctly for the focal length of that particular lens. This needs to be removed to provide a secure mount for the 16598, otherwise there are not enough threads engaged.

 

David there is a retaining screw on this collar

PLEASE do not remove this collar or you will have problem with the complete lens.

[david werbeloff]

Hello, JC & Luigi,

 

Yes, that is indeed the ring, measures approximately 7.5mm. It has a little dimple on one side but there is no a set screw since it does not go through the metal to lock it in place.

 

I understand that this ring must be there to provide the correct distance between the lens head and the focus helical at infinity, so it must be there when the lens is fully assembled for use on the Viso.

 

JC, I tried again to mount the lens head using the large diameter thread to Bellows II. The threads on the lens fall down inside the Bellows threads without engaging, so there must be at least .5mm difference in diameter. In addition, the pitch on the Bellows thread is courser.

 

Luigi, I look forward to hearing your first reports on your new "toy";)

 

It is Thanksgiving today, so I must defy convention and cook a leg of lamb for our guests!

 

Best,

David

[jc_braconi]

JC, I tried again to mount the lens head using the large diameter thread to Bellows II. The threads on the lens fall down inside the Bellows threads without engaging, so there must be at least .5mm difference in diameter. In addition, the pitch on the Bellows thread is courser.

David

 

If you cannot measure with a dial caliper and thread gauge it seems useful to continue.

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Hallo,

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[luigi bertolotti]

JC, face the reality ... the truth is that there is another variant of the V3 and YOU HAVEN'T IT !!!