pico Posted October 22, 2011 Share #41 Posted October 22, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) [...] I don't know anyone who shoots at umpteen frames per second and hopes one frame was the perfect moment - but then there are several billion people in this world I don't know, so I don't claim my circle of acquaintances are representative. Neither would I make such a claim, but you and I have worked with published professional photographers for decades, so our sample is adequate. The best sports and 'decisive moment' photographer I ever worked with used a motor drive merely to avoid having to manually wind. He was left-dominant eyed. He never shot-gunned. You knew him too - Hal Stoelzle. I swear the man lived 1/50th of a second in the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Hi pico, Take a look here M9 Expected Life-Cycle. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
kdriceman Posted October 22, 2011 Share #42 Posted October 22, 2011 It's pretty difficult to shotgun with the M9 because after 7 shots you have to wait and wait and wait for the buffer to empty. But I do take multiple shots on quite a few opportunities. This is because, as Andy noted, you shoot, then something changes. Maybe an expression or a position shift and you think "hey, that might look better" . The penalty for taking that extra shot in the digital era is nil, especially if you have an efficient workflow. The only real consequence is the incremental shutter actuation. I expect the M9 to last for +- 200,000 actuations. By then, I expect to be shooting an M11 or M12. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted October 22, 2011 Share #43 Posted October 22, 2011 normally about 150K actuations and 20 years at least. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
denoir Posted October 23, 2011 Share #44 Posted October 23, 2011 But I do take multiple shots on quite a few opportunities. This is because, as Andy noted, you shoot, then something changes. Maybe an expression or a position shift and you think "hey, that might look better". Yes, plus the M9 frame lines are rather inaccurate which means that if you want an exact composition, you may have to retake a shot a couple of times. Here's just a screenshot from a random position in my lightroom image library: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! In this particular case it took six shots before I got the composition the way I wanted. I've had my M9 for one year now and I've taken around 25,000 shots with it. Two thirds of that are probably near-duplicates. The only solution to that will be if a future M10 will have live view - that would significantly reduce my image count when doing certain types of photography. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! In this particular case it took six shots before I got the composition the way I wanted. I've had my M9 for one year now and I've taken around 25,000 shots with it. Two thirds of that are probably near-duplicates. The only solution to that will be if a future M10 will have live view - that would significantly reduce my image count when doing certain types of photography. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/134321-m9-expected-life-cycle/?do=findComment&comment=1824086'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 23, 2011 Share #45 Posted October 23, 2011 It's pretty difficult to shotgun with the M9 because after 7 shots you have to wait and wait and wait for the buffer to empty. But I do take multiple shots on quite a few opportunities. This is because, as Andy noted, you shoot, then something changes. Maybe an expression or a position shift and you think "hey, that might look better" . The penalty for taking that extra shot in the digital era is nil, especially if you have an efficient workflow. The only real consequence is the incremental shutter actuation. I expect the M9 to last for +- 200,000 actuations. By then, I expect to be shooting an M11 or M12. No, you do not have to wait for the buffer to empty; as soon as one shot is processed there is room for the next one. So what actually happens is that it runs at 2 fps for seven shots and then slows to one shot every 2 sec or so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglouis Posted October 23, 2011 Share #46 Posted October 23, 2011 In this particular case it took six shots before I got the composition the way I wanted. Have you heard of the technique called 'cropping'? It could cut down significantly on the number of shots you take. LouisB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdriceman Posted October 23, 2011 Share #47 Posted October 23, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Have you heard of the technique called 'cropping'? It could cut down significantly on the number of shots you take. LouisB The crop is a good tool, but who wants to give up pixels when you could have a full frame composition by simply snapping another shot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
denoir Posted October 23, 2011 Share #48 Posted October 23, 2011 Have you heard of the technique called 'cropping'? It could cut down significantly on the number of shots you take. LouisB Have you heard of parallax? The relation of the 3D objects projected on an image can't be changed by cropping. Not to mention the complete messing up the rendering of the lens when you cut away all the nice things going on around the edges (vignetting, field curvature etc). I'm not interested in converting my FF camera to a bland, flat crop camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted October 23, 2011 Share #49 Posted October 23, 2011 [...]In this particular case it took six shots before I got the composition the way I wanted. I never got the hang of posing rocks. Even my pet rock won't listen to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haroldp Posted October 23, 2011 Share #50 Posted October 23, 2011 This is an interesting thread. Some thoughts to consider : There are many reasons to shoot multiple frames, even of static subjects like landscapes. - Stitching panorama's, My almost 'standard' pano is 3 frames vertical by 9 frames horizontal (in portrait mode on a tripod with a 90mm) for 27 frames per 'image' these after processing, overlap and stitching yield panos in the 300-400 mp range of stunning resolution. - HDR merging. In contrasty light I will usually take at least three frames, 1.3 EV apart (middle, high, low) for potential HDR merge later. Sometimes it is 5 frames. - Sometimes my pano shoots will be 27 frames X 3 or 5 for HDR, yielding up to 135 frames for a single image. This may seem (and is) a lot of work and requires patience (particularly by my long suffering wife), but the results are worth it, as these are the most frequently requested prints by visitors who see them on the walls of my home. Having shot in my youth (when I was professional), many sports (particularly basketball) events with a Leica M2 (which I still have and use), and baseball / soccer (mostly with Nikon F for the long lenses), I can attest to seeing 1/60th into the future, particularly when one covers the same sports and teams frequently. That being said, If I were doing this today, I would easily opt for my Nikon D3 with autofocus at 9 FPS. Breaching whales are not nearly as predictable as a basketball team and there again, I use autofocus cameras in burst mode. When I was shooting 3-4 weddings per week in the 1970's, mostly om Mamiya 2 1/4 X 2 3/4 film cameras with leaf shutters, my favorite repairman (in Queens NY), stocked Mamiya (and Hasselblad) lenses with new shutters and we simply swapped lenses rather than wait for ones own to be repaired. Shutters (and backs) were considered as consumable supplies You can see some of my panos and other work at 'www.harold-piskiel.artistwebsites.com'. They are too big too attach here. The whales will be posted in the next week or so when I have finished preparation. Regards .... H Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted October 23, 2011 Share #51 Posted October 23, 2011 I never got the hang of posing rocks. Even my pet rock won't listen to me.Mmmmm.... both you and the rock are sad, maybe some therapy will help. Succes! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Morte Posted October 24, 2011 Share #52 Posted October 24, 2011 There has been a few threads in this blog about it and some users was well over the 100 000 mark. Streamlight Photography Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robofc Posted October 28, 2011 Share #53 Posted October 28, 2011 Perhaps those who are surprised by the number of shots should spend more of their time shooting and less of it gasping at those who do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gib_robinson Posted October 29, 2011 Share #54 Posted October 29, 2011 High-volume shooting does not have to be "spray and pray" - and frankly, implying so is insulting. "I don't know how people shoot so many images and still see anything." - Umm, because they are good at it? Diane Arbus shot an entire roll to get her image of the "Boy with Hand Grenade" - http://www.photokaboom.com/images/tips/Arbus_Diane_Child_with_a_Toy_Hand_Grenade_in_Central_Park_contact_sheet_resampled_1.jpg It was the final frame. Same goes for Garry Winograd: Professional photo & video themes for WordPress | Visual Society - which may explain why he died leaving 300,000 unedited images and 2,500 unprocessed rolls of film. And Gene Smith, who shot 11,000 negatives over 6 months (with knob-wind Canons/Leicas and some 4x5) for his Pittsburgh Project: [Two contact sheets showing young adults and children reading and listening to music in a library, and African American children playing around street sign at the corner of Cowell and Pride streets, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania] I'm willing to listen to someone mouth off about "machine-gun shooting" or "spray and pray" if their images, print prices, print sales, book sales and reputation match Diane's or Garry's or Gene's. Otherwise, they would do better to shut up and learn something from their betters. I always shoot "scared" - i.e. I assume everything I've shot so far was - err - excrement, and that I'd better keep shooting to get something better. One reason why I leave "instant review" turned off and rarely chimp. Sometimes the 'best" shot is the first one - and sometimes the last one. "It's a funny thing - the more I practice, the luckier I get" - variously attributed to Arnold Palmer, Gary Player and Lee Trevino Andy, I love the expression "spray and pay." And I agree with your conclusions. With respect to my own experience, I find street shooting or photographing kids/people who move and change positions or photographing events to be high volume photography. Landscape photography is not. Personally, I shoot approximately 10K a year with an M9 and about 5K a year with a Canon 1DIV but I shoot about 90% of the time with my M9. With the Canon almost all my shooting is high volume -- birds, kids, sports. I'm not a pro but I photograph 4 or 5 days a week and I do a fair amount of pro bono work for non-profits using Canon and Leica in tandem. Those are usually high-volume "assignments" which would have been extremely expensive to do with film. It's wonderful not to worry about the cost per image or even keeper rate. Sometimes it's high; sometimes not. I usually try to keep shooting until the opportunity disappears or I am as sure as I can be that I have what I want. I never think about volume. I do try to edit rigorously through several sessions over time. --Gib Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted October 29, 2011 Share #55 Posted October 29, 2011 Perhaps those who are surprised by the number of shots should spend more of their time shooting and less of it gasping at those who do. Honestly, that is one of the daftest posts I have ever read here. Please look in a dictionary and try to understand the difference between "quality" and "quantity". Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
beewee Posted October 30, 2011 Share #56 Posted October 30, 2011 On the topic of M9 shutter life, the M9 has the exact same shutter as the M8, which also shares the same shutter is the R8/R9 according to Stephan Daniel in a video interview at Luminous Landscape filmed shortly before the M9 was released. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbaddley Posted October 30, 2011 Share #57 Posted October 30, 2011 To the original question about the life of an M9, much of this discussion assumes that the shutter will be the first thing to go. Do we really know this about a digital camera? Maybe something electronic, like the processor or sensor, will be the weak link. If my stereo equipment from the 80s provides any indication, electronic stuff does wear out. What about sensors? Like the eyes of many fine photographers, will they loose their sensitivity as they age? - David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
beewee Posted October 30, 2011 Share #58 Posted October 30, 2011 To the original question about the life of an M9, much of this discussion assumes that the shutter will be the first thing to go. Do we really know this about a digital camera? Maybe something electronic, like the processor or sensor, will be the weak link. If my stereo equipment from the 80s provides any indication, electronic stuff does wear out. What about sensors? Like the eyes of many fine photographers, will they loose their sensitivity as they age? - David As far as sensors go, the dyes used for the bayer matrix will eventually fade (though this is based more on time and light exposure). Also, CCDs (and probably most semiconductors for that matter) are susceptable to gamma ray exposure that can cause small power surges that can fry the transistors. Even flying on an airliner will increase gamma ray exposure since there is less atmosphere to absorb the gamma rays. In fact, this is one reason why all the major digital camera manufacturers ship their cameras by ground/ship rather than by air. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted October 30, 2011 Share #59 Posted October 30, 2011 100,000 cycles is to be expected. I know people who have 500,000 on the Nikon shutters and a million on Canons. They still work. But they are like light bulbs or people, in the end some fail early. If you need to worry, I suggest you can not do 120 good worthy pictures in a day. Think before you push the button. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dant Posted September 12, 2014 Share #60 Posted September 12, 2014 Is this right? Someone has about 1/3 million on the shutter? leica m9 | Camera Shutter Life Database Pretty impressive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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