S2MP: Simply Too Much Price.

[BerndReini]

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There is a point where image quality is not the all deciding factor anymore. If you are a professional, you are running a business, and you are buying mostly based on what you need to get the job done. You don't even have to look at Phaseone for that because most Pros are shooting with Canon DSLRs now.

If you are an "amateur," meaning someone who loves photography but is not dependent on it being profitable, you can buy whatever gives you the most joy. I think it was Michael Reichmann who described the S2 as just feeling right. Well, that is something that you just cannot replace. I've been wanting a Porsche for a long time, and bang for the buck, I should really buy a Corvette instead. It would make more sense financially, and it is just as fast, if not faster. The problem is, I want a Porsche! And as long as people like me just want it badly and are willing to pay the premium for it, Porsche has no reason to lower their prices. In this case, THEY are the professionals.

 

And as an aside, it always seems that what we really want, no matter in what price range, just always seems a little too high for us. Well, maybe that's because we are always intrigued by things that are just a little out of are reach for the time being, but could become a viable possibility in the future. That's what keeps us motivated.

[Jeffacme]

If you are a professional, you are running a business, and you are buying mostly based on what you need to get the job done. You don't even have to look at Phaseone for that because most Pros are shooting with Canon DSLRs now.

 

I am a pro and shoot both P65+ and Canon 1ds mk3s. I really can't imagine running a business with just one system.

 

The P65+ accounts for about 90% of my business but I still need the DSLR system for the other 10.

 

As for the S2, great camera with real potential but at this point getting a bit stale with regards to the technology. A two year old chip in an slr style body that I still can't get a full system for is non starter for me.

 

The price is extreme but I could justify spending the cash if the S2 could enhance my studio relative to the cost of entry.

 

For me at least the S2 remains a curiosity due to it's lack of flexibility. No detachable chip to pop on a view camera and nowhere near the fluid shooting experience of the best of the DSLRs.

 

So yes simply too much price.

 

Jeff H

Acme Image Works - News

[jrv]

A two year old chip...

Don't confuse the sensor chip with the in-camera image processing. The CCD chip in the S2 is almost certainly better than any Canikon sensor in terms of sensitivity and dynamic range, but Canikon has does vastly better in-camera image processing. Leica needs to invest in image processing - the sensor itself is not the problem.

 

(from a business standpoint Leica will try to switch from CCD to back-illuminated CMOS for the same reason everyone else went to CMOS - cost. That makes improving processing all the more important as everyone will have the same sensor technology and standing out will be harder)

 

On pro vs. amateur: the motive of a pro is to meet customer expectations at the least cost. The motive of an amateur is the best quality they can afford. The reality is that few customers know or care what the equipment is, and a bottom-end Canikon SLR is almost always just fine for a pro. The line isn't black & white since most pros enjoy quality too, but a pro is trying to operate at a profit whereas it's all "loss" for an amateur anyway.

 

As for balancing manufacturing capacity with demand: increasing production and improving product availability at retail is very expensive. Even if it would clearly be profitable to do so, it still takes a lot of money to do it. Now is not the best time to borrow large sums money to increase production of very expensive camera equipment, and Leica might well be willing to not maximize production/profit to avoid a disaster if they increased production and the market collapsed. There's also the question of just how easy it is to find the highly-skilled labor needed to make a lens.

[mjh]

from a business standpoint Leica will try to switch from CCD to back-illuminated CMOS for the same reason everyone else went to CMOS - cost.

Only there are no back-illuminated (BSI) sensors in MF sizes. Neither are there BSI sensors in FF or APS-C versions. Only some compact digicams have BSI CMOS sensors and last I heard Sony has no plans to manufacture BSI CMOS sensors for larger frame sizes – there’s no need to and I guess it would also be too expensive.

 

CMOS (but not BSI) sensors dominate in FF, APS-C, APS-H, and (Micro) FourThirds cameras; medium-format is still CCD territory.

[Googaliser]

Only there are no back-illuminated (BSI) sensors in MF sizes. Neither are there BSI sensors in FF or APS-C versions. Only some compact digicams have BSI CMOS sensors and last I heard Sony has no plans to manufacture BSI CMOS sensors for larger frame sizes – there’s no need to and I guess it would also be too expensive.

 

CMOS (but not BSI) sensors dominate in FF, APS-C, APS-H, and (Micro) FourThirds cameras; medium-format is still CCD territory.

 

There are back-lluminated CCDs in MF sizes - they are just horrendously expensive. e2v and Fairchild are two suppliers - but mainly for military & scientific uses (astrophotographers should be familiar with them). Presumably, if they were to design consumer chips, the volume should help the affordability, although I am not familiar with what the technical challenges may be. What I do know is that the sensitivity of these chips is a quantum leap over current front illuminated chips. An S3 that is good for ISO 100,000 anyone ?

 

Rgds

[Jeffacme]

Don't confuse the sensor chip with the in-camera image processing. The CCD chip in the S2 is almost certainly better than any Canikon sensor in terms of sensitivity and dynamic range, but Canikon has does vastly better in-camera image processing. Leica needs to invest in image processing - the sensor itself is not the problem.

 

The reality is that few customers know or care what the equipment is, and a bottom-end Canikon SLR is almost always just fine for a pro. The line isn't black & white since most pros enjoy quality too, but a pro is trying to operate at a profit whereas it's all "loss" for an amateur anyway.

 

I am not confused and if asked to compare the S2 sensor to anything it would be the P65+ which I own and shoot everyday. I keep the canon system for a small percentage of projects that require a more fluid shooting style, high ISO, underwater, etc and can say with absolute certainty that the 1ds mk3 is far better for these applications then any MF system.

 

The reality is that a bottom end DSLR won't get you in the room with most advertising clients. A high end DSLR will but only for the limited types of applications I listed above. Want to shoot the types of projects that can support a MF system and make it profitable then you need a MF system.

 

Jeff H

[LeicaS2]

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Jeff,

Now I'm confused. Well actually I'm curious. You have all the fine tools you need. They are more expensive, more flexible, and more resolution than an S2. You already have more lenses. You do great work with what you have. Why are you even visiting a Leica S2 forum?

[Jeffacme]

Jeff,

Now I'm confused. Well actually I'm curious. You have all the fine tools you need. They are more expensive, more flexible, and more resolution than an S2. You already have more lenses. You do great work with what you have. Why are you even visiting a Leica S2 forum?

 

Curiosity, I have a genuine interest in the camera and visit the site to keep up with developments. As hopefully a smart business person it is important to be ahead of the curve.

 

If my business demands were to narrow in the future and I could get away with say just an S3 system I would in a heartbeat.

 

When I read generalized statements about what most pros use I feel it is important to provide context and another perspective.

 

Finally just for entertainment,

 

Jeff H

[BerndReini]

A lot of my colleagues shoot Canon DSLRs for fashion and celebrity portraits and they rent medium format systems when the specific job requires it. There are many different kinds of professionals, and as far as I know Gilles Bensimone shoots mostly with a Canon DSLR now. And ad agencies eat out of his hand. There is a level where it doesn't matter what you shoot with and the images just speak for themselves.

 

I am a cinematographer by profession and I own a very popular camera system that I use on most of my shoots. On the few occasions that the client wants to use a different system, I have them sub-rent that format. This is why I try to make sure that in my day rate for my labor, the camera system will not make that much of a difference. I know how ad agencies are, and I agree, when they hear that Phase One is now up to 65mp, they don't want to use the P45 back. However, they also want to hire someone that is so established that the price difference between these two systems doesn't make too much of a difference.

 

I have some clients that have enough trust in me that if I want to shoot with an S2, that will be just fine.

 

Also, as far as my statements about what most pros use: I agree that most commercial jobs use medium format systems. However, only a small amount of professionals shoot for ad agencies. Magazine photographers, set photographers, journalists etc. are all pros and most of them use DSLRs. That's not a generalization. I know wedding photographers with high six-figure incomes, whom I certainly qualify as pros, and guess what: DSLRs. I wish there was a published number of how many pros use Canon vs. Phase One, but I can tell you this much, Canon is a big company! So yes, the S2 is expensive, but compared to a DSLR, so is Phase One.

 

I really do understand where you are coming from though in your market. It's a dilemma. I only buy the system that gets me a good return in rentals, but sometimes you just want something just to have it. The S2 just feels great and I am sure you can sell it to some of your clients and achieve great results with it. Just get one, it's a write-off. And definitely don't be discouraged from checking the forum. I don't need an S2 either, why am I here? I kind of want one. That's what Leica does to you better than any other camera manufacturer. They make you just want their toys.

[Jeffacme]

Ok maybe I overreacted to your original statement and I agree with most of what you just said.

 

There is no doubt at a very high level shooters can call all the shots.

 

Often though format choice is driven by technical concerns and the reality of how the finished image will be used. I can and do select the format used for a given project but mostly because I have a track record of making the right choice.

 

Getting back to the S2 and price I am still of the opinion that it is dated, incomplete, and to expensive for my studio relative to the return I can expect. I have far more interest in the next iteration since it will most likely be a full and available system with more current tech.

 

I do also fear that the long delays in releasing S system components plays into the hands of Canikon and in particular Canon. The rumored 1ds mk4 has apparently been delayed to insure a more stable perch atop the DSLR throne. I am now hearing 35mp sometime next year. Just a rumor, but if past evolutions of the DS are any indication such a camera with dozens of available lenses could make the S2 irrelevant for many pros on the lower end. Just as the 60mp range backs have on the high end.

 

I do understand the burning desire to own an S2 just because, and will confess to being a major gear slut. However those desires do not a market make and the current price though reasonable today may be it's undoing as the competition form the bottom increases.

[BerndReini]

I think if I was doing very specific work like just portraiture, I could see myself getting an S2 because I really think the quality is great and the handling of the camera is phenomenal. My biggest concern is the availability of rental equipment. I live in Los Angeles, and there are several places that rent full sets of lenses for Hasselblad, Mamyia, Nikon, and Canon. The S2, I don't really know where to rent even a full set of the few lenses currently available, or a backup body for that matter.

 

I still own a Contax 645 system with five lenses, which I am about to sell simply because there is no place in town that rents a back for it anymore.

 

The problem with the S2 is that I just don't see the price dropping at all. It's just not something that happens with Leicas. If the S2 doesn't work out, they will discontinue the system and the used market will probably hold its value for a long time.

 

Sometimes I wish Leica would do what some Zeiss is doing: make the lenses, and let other companies like Phase One make the backs for them.

[Bo_Lorentzen]

Agree - that is a issue.

 

Living in LA we are used to be able to run down and pick up a spare for any piece of gear we might need - the s2 pro promise of a loaner in 48 hours is not quite saving a shoot day with a bunch of people on set. " see ya all in 48 hours" is going to be a hard sell.

 

Yet for portraiture I would probably love a s2, and while I like the M there is something to be saud for seeing what is being captured Ib the viewfinder when doing portraits. Permitting final cropping and carefully positioning of all elements in the image.

 

But I'm still puzzled with the prize discussion. It's a "who cares" thing. The real issue is will it work for the users business model, I could easily sell as2 for weddings and garment photography. If it's purchased entirely for personal photography there is only two options - either you can afford the s2 as a hobby or you can't - figure out what it is and stop wining, really it's not leicas fault. Now let's get back to taking pictures with whatever we have and enjoy using.

 

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[rosuna]

I understand the argument of price, but not that of technology. The technology of the S2 is state of the art for medium format systems. The sensor is the last generation type from Kodak, and CCDs are relatively simple (passive) devices and the evolution seems to be much slower than that of CMOSes. The processor seems to be really good (powerful and small). The AF system is fast and precise (as good as any other in MF territory, or better). The body is sealed, the LCD screen is very good (most screens in MF cameras are inferior). Etc.

 

I believe Leica will adjust the price, if necessary. They will do it for this model of the next one. They may even release two different bodies at different prices, etc. The Pentax 646D is a good point of reference for the price of this type of equipment (about 10,000 euros), plus a typical "Leica marging", of course. Now the body costs 18,000 euros, and they may reduce the price to 15,000 or even a bit below that. Kaufmann said before the camera was effectively launched that they were considering that target price of 15,000. It might be rational and necessary in a few months, but not at this moment.

 

Prices are a concern for professionals, but Leica tries to recover as much investment as possible, and as quick as possible. They cannot seduce professionals to other reasons than price in any case. So the high price/margin is the more rational strategy for this first stage in the deployment of the system.

[mooky]

A great camera released before it was ready to 'hit the ground running.' If the system was ready the price would or may have been easier to take. But as it is now, the lenses I would want haven't shown up yet - wide and widest angles. So while I wait, and wait, and wait, I would have been just as satisfied with the digitally dead non-system they 'promised'.

 

After a while, the market and waiting customers move on.

[watchout72]

Edmund, come to China (and other places in Asia). Idiots are buying up the S2, M9, 50 Lux in bulk. And more often than not together in one purchase.

 

I can't vouch for the quality of the purchases, but the S2 is being bought up. Quickly too.

 

 

I do not own nor intent to buy a S2.

As with any commercial product - a business would always price what the market can bear.

Eventually who buys, trades, re-sell, in bulk or otherwise etc. is open (in most instances, unless there is a specific control set due to the nature of the product to tone down speculation e.g. housing).

 

So, why call someone an "idiot" just because he/she is doing something that you do not agree with.

[gpleica]

I just read this thread from beginning to end this morning and find it interesting because all of the points of view expressed here are valid. I own an S2P now and fully qualify as one of the well off people who love photography more than almost anything in life (note the word "almost"), and yet I do not make my primary living off my photographic work. The S2's ease of handling and incredibly sharp and fast 70 lens, combined with it's weather-sealing and medium format image quality was a dream come true. So I agree with the statements made here that you always want what you wish you could have and in my case, the S2 fit the bill.

 

All gear has its shortcomings - you either decide you can live with them (and often these same shortcomings are what push you to new heights in terms of your work), or you choose to shoot with something else. Price is an entry barrier for the S2, but Leica and it's dealers are entitled to stay in business and if they are finding they are meeting their expectations in terms of sales of the S2, it means they will continue to be in the camera business for some time to come. And that is a good thing for a company that was facing a pretty dismal future not so long ago. And a good thing for us, whether we own an S2 or not at this point in time.

 

Geoffrey

Milford, PA

[Jeffacme]

I just read this thread from beginning to end this morning and find it interesting because all of the points of view expressed here are valid. I own an S2P now and fully qualify as one of the well off people who love photography more than almost anything in life (note the word "almost"), and yet I do not make my primary living off my photographic work. The S2's ease of handling and incredibly sharp and fast 70 lens, combined with it's weather-sealing and medium format image quality was a dream come true. So I agree with the statements made here that you always want what you wish you could have and in my case, the S2 fit the bill.

 

All gear has its shortcomings - you either decide you can live with them (and often these same shortcomings are what push you to new heights in terms of your work), or you choose to shoot with something else. Price is an entry barrier for the S2, but Leica and it's dealers are entitled to stay in business and if they are finding they are meeting their expectations in terms of sales of the S2, it means they will continue to be in the camera business for some time to come. And that is a good thing for a company that was facing a pretty dismal future not so long ago. And a good thing for us, whether we own an S2 or not at this point in time.

 

Geoffrey

Milford, PA

 

Totally agree, congrats on your purchase. My comments re: price and ROI were specific to my situation and studio.

 

I firmly believe you should shoot with what works for you, gives the results you are after, and makes you happy.

 

Have Fun,

 

Jeff H

[BerndReini]

Bear with me if this seems unrelated: for the last few days I have been obsessing over the new Fuji GF670 film rangefinder. It costs $1,800 and I really don't need it. There is a Fuji GW670 on ebay at a buy it now price of $599. It has the exact same lens except that the new one is a folder instead of a metal barreled lens. I am sure it will give the exact same results as far as image quality and I am trying to talk myself into saving the money and buy the old used one. But I just can't. I know myself, and I know from experience that if I love something on a purely visceral and aesthetic level, I cannot cheat myself with something "as good" but cheaper. Whenever I try to take a shortcut like that, I end up not using the cheaper version and eventually go out and buy what I really wanted. If what I wanted was the S2, then another MF camera or DSLR just wouldn't do it for me, especially if I had a chance to use it professionally every day. I face many of these decisions all the time and I have learned to be patient, eg. want a Porsche, "should" really buy a Corvette (just as fast and a lot cheaper). I will wait until I can afford the Porsche just because I like it better.

[KevinA]

The way I hear it, the S2 is selling very slowly into the pro market, but well (relative to price) into the amateur market. Which I think is a good news/bad news story for Leica - good news: it's selling; bad news: to those fickle amateurs.....

 

Sandy

Yes it is to much, but it is a Leica and they have never been cheap.

 

It's difficult to make a purchasing case for the Leica in a professional market, in fact I think it is difficult for many to make a MF case. I think there are many shooting MF that see little benefit in income return for doing so and overkill for their output. When I look at equipment purchases I have to ask the question "what will it earn and not what it costs" I can't see any reason to have a MF system other than for my own satisfaction. A S2 would make me poorer than a Hasselblad and the Hasselblad poorer than a Canon and there it stops for me.

I know lots of photographers that shot LF and now shoot 5DmkII, the end user has no idea what it was shot on. Once the physical size of transparency or contact sheet would give it away to the client, now they are clueless. The end result in print does not justify anything better than 35 mm and the bill at the end certainly does not justify it.

A couple of months back I had a request for an aerial shot, they added as a by the way "we will need to make a 10 meter wide print from the result" I gasped, but was told they had made them before and they looked fantastic. I told them how to look up the exif data to give me an idea of which camera was used, Canon Eos 1DsmkIII was the reply.

No doubt a P65+ would have been better, I would not of got a penny more for the job if I had used a P65 shimmed to an Alpha.

I can see the desire for the S2, I have that desire, but as a business proposition it is a non starter for me, you can tell yourself all kinds of half truths to justify it, in this climate most "pros" would see through their own lame reasoning, hence it is not being bought by the professional.

Now if Leica would like to loan me one for a year, no doubt I would sing it's praises from the rooftops and justify the cost to the World :-)

 

Kevin.

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[jaapv]

I can understand a professional yearning for an S2 for a specific job, but unless those jobs are his bread and butter (and caviar ) I suppose that renting will be the way to go. In that sense Leica can probably do best by prioritizing the rental market.. But: the projected sales are quite modest at about 1000 a year (Mr. Daniel, 2009) and it can make no difference to Leica whether the buyer is professional or amateur, maybe better amateur, as that throws less strain on the after-sales support. Let's face it, the professional market is small in all sections of the photographic world, even if the gear is suited / designed for professional use. For marketing purposes it is great to see professionals use your camera, but when it comes to generating turnover, the guy to target is the amateur buyer.