Leica/LUF @ P'kina in English

[Guest BigSplash]

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I agree with Steve. Leica's product renovation in the last 5 years has been impressive, considering lenses, cameras, accesories, etc. The real problem was to set a product plan for the long term. This Photokina we got the final details. Now they have problems to deal with (manufacturing, logistics, research and development... but they already have announced incremental improvements), but it seems they have a stable base for working on all this without anxiety or hurry. The dangerous years have been left behind...

 

Rosuna you are always impressive in terms of your analysis and knowledge of the photographic market and I normally take what you say at face value as a consequence. Please allow me two comments on what you say above:

1. The last 5 years at Leica have not been pretty in terms of P&L in fact without another cash injection from Dr Kaufamann in early 2009 I doubt that the company could have survived. Over the last 5 year we had nothing until M9, and several ASPH lenses (that are still not shipping in volumes), S2, X1, in Sept 2009 and Pradovit earlier that year. Since then nothing .....and this is impressive!
   
2. You say "This Photokina we got the final details" That is my point what are the exciting new products and roadmap within these final details. I think we are all living in hope rather than hearing concrete plans
   

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[Guest BigSplash]

Bale out of Leica now, Frank, before it's too late.

 

When the company inevitably goes out of business, no one will want the stuff any more.

 

Andy I continue to live in hope but maybe your analysis is correct. Certainly my friend sailing last week came to your conclusion and sold his Leica stuff, while keeping his M6.

Certainly R lens owners have moved to Nikon or Canon and DMR owners now seem to be having difficulties to get spare parts and even batteries. The Pradovit as I predicted and was ridiculed a year ago has not sold.

 

I hope you are wrong because the look and feel of a M Leica is different and commercially it seems the M9 has been a great success. Since now the delinquent backlog of M9 bodies has eased and some dealers have them ex stock I think prices will slowly drop.

 

Hopefully the possibility of price drops of M9 will not affect their P&L. to the point as you suggest that they go out of business...That if it happened would be very sad, unless of course you are being sarcastic in which case I do not think you should be making such comments

[andybarton]

Over the last 5 year we had nothing until M9, and several ASPH lenses (that are still not shipping in volumes), S2, X1, in Sept 2009 and Pradovit earlier that year. Since then nothing .....and this is impressive!

 

Aren't you forgetting the M8?

[andybarton]

 

Hopefully the possibility of price drops of M9 will not affect their P&L. to the point as you suggest that they go out of business...That if it happened would be very sad, unless of course you are being sarcastic in which case I do not think you should be making such comments

 

I was being ironic, Frank, not sarcastic.

 

The price of M9s is already dropping now that they are in free stock. One London dealer is already offering them at about £150 discount. Not much, but it's the start of the drop in price - not necessarily a drop in profit

[stunsworth]

Aren't you forgetting the M8?

 

And the 16/18/21 tri-elmar, and the 18mm Elmarit, and the 21mm Summilux, and the 24mm Summilux, and the Noctilux. I'd also assume there would be some sports optics.

 

But apart from that what have the Romans done for us?

[andybarton]

The Summarit family

[stunsworth]

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DMR owners now seem to be having difficulties to get spare parts and even batteries.

 

Since you use the present tense could you point me to the evidence to support this claim?

[stunsworth]

The Summarit family

 

Ok, so apart from the M8, M9, X1, S2 (and lenses), sports optics, Summarit lenses, 16/18/21 Tri-Elmar, 18mm Elmarit, 21mm Summilux, 24mm Summilux, 35mm Summilux and Noctilux, what exactly have Leica's R&D team been doing when they should have been working? Sitting around eating sausages and drinking beer no doubt.

[bill]

Over the last 5 year we had nothing until M9, and several ASPH lenses (that are still not shipping in volumes), S2, X1, in Sept 2009 and Pradovit earlier that year. Since then nothing .....and this is impressive!

The usual old ill-informed negative nonsense eh, Frank?

 

Tell you what, let's have a whip-round for Frank to bale out of Leica and buy a new Canon. I'll put in a fiver to start it off.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[redbaron]

This is not an AGM, Frank.

Put me down for 20.

[pop]

Did anyone mention the LEICA Summilux-C™ lens set which was brought to market in the not too distant past?

 

Why does anyone assume Frank is in need of some hay? Or I am misreading the baling out?

[rosuna]

Ok, so apart from the M8, M9, X1, S2 (and lenses), sports optics, Summarit lenses, 16/18/21 Tri-Elmar, 18mm Elmarit, 21mm Summilux, 24mm Summilux, 35mm Summilux and Noctilux, what exactly have Leica's R&D team been doing when they should have been working? Sitting around eating sausages and drinking beer no doubt.

 

A new glass magnifier for the M cameras, Elmar ASPH 24mm, the Pradovit, 4 lenses for the S system, tethering software for the S2 camera, different firmware updates for different cameras, profiles for Lightroom, the Titanium M9 (it was an interesting design exercise with Leica's interaction), or even the Summilux-C lenses (I don't know if there was some participation from Leica's engineers at some point)... new lenses for Panasonic compact cameras, a new macro lens for micro 4/3 camera (all this implies design of design supervision, but it is work)... new logistics system, new manufacturing organization for the S camera, Leitz-Park (the buildings are more or less ready...)... a lot of activity in very different fields... "But apart from that what have the Romans done for us?"

 

They need to improve many things, but that is a different story.

 

Kaufmann is investing money in Leica. He is the owner. They have been involved in a deep restructuring process, a very costly process. Sales cannot increase without a complete portfolio. Now they have it, and sales are increasing, and profits.

 

The details of the plan do not include particular products, but that is logical. We know the S, M and X systems (and compact cameras), are the 3 lines in which Leica will concentrate their efforts. I am more confident about Leica's future now. A 24x36 reflex system cannot be profitable in the long term. They will not go that route. An all new system developed under pressure is not good news either. They will not go that route. They will develop further the S system, looking at the market, in a flexible way. They will develop the M system, and the improvements will be shared with a possible mirrorless variant in the system. This new camera is not developed for the R lenses, but as a natural evolution in the M system itself (CMOS sensors are evolving, electronic viewfinders are improving, the same for OLED screens... etc. so it is a question of time). The X cameras are another growing niche. Sigma and Ricoh were the pioneers here, but Leica did it well (better) with the X1. New technology will bring new models (X2, etc.), as usual. It is a promising line. In comparison, the 4/3 reflex cameras (Digilux 3) was the result of a bad decision. Leica may rebrand Panasonic cameras for those lines out of reach for them (compact cameras), but future X models may offer better image quality than micro 4/3 cameras, and Leica can do that by itself (I would suggest even larger sensors for the next Xs).

 

We don't know about particular products but we know that the lines are closed, and the resources will be concentrated on that. The first cameras of those lines are selling well, generating resources for a self-sustained development. Synergies and sharing of components are necessary, but they know it and I guess they will figure out how to do it.

 

I am optimist at this moment.

[rosuna]

Did anyone mention the LEICA Summilux-C™ lens set which was brought to market in the not too distant past?

 

Yes, but those lenses were designed by Iain Neil, a world famous lens designer who worked for Panavision (now he lives in Switzerland). Neil says: "The base set of 8 lenses, from wide angle to long focal length, derive from a single optical design approach and construction. I created a new optical design, which is patent pending, and it covers the whole range of lenses. They all derive from one core optical design which involves using more than one aspherical surface. That’s the key thing". He recruited a team of top-class engineers for the optical and mechanical design of those lenses. I don't know if there was an engineer from Leica Camera in that team.

 

The Summilux-C lenses are not "good" or "very good" cinema lenses, they are a quantum leap forward in optical and mechanical design of cinema lenses. In Iain Neils' own words: "This was not going to be a series of lenses that’s just a mere improvement over what’s been there before. This was a situation that happens every quarter century, where you can make a quantum leap in lens design as opposed to an improvement".

 

Read a practical confirmation of Roger Deakins, one of the best active directors of photography:

 

Roger Deakins, ASC, BSC • View topic - New Leica lenses for cinema?

 

The Leica Summilux-C lenses were developed by CW Sonderoptic Wetzlar, a 100% subsidiary of ACM Project Development Company (owned by Kaufmann). Do you know what? The Managing director of Sonderoptic was... Alfred Schopf!

 

The development of the lenses was an initiative of Dr. Kaufmann, Christian Skrein and Otto Nemenz.

 

You can read more information about the development of Summilux-C lenses at "Film and Digital Times", issue 32-33, June 2010.

[hoppyman]

Geoff, I think Franky is just setting the stage for his "missed opportunity" thread on October 10.

 

Fast forwarding to the next page of replies!!........

........................................................................................

"I think there was a missed opportunity to widen the scope of the M9 to make it a more useful system offering as I have said in previous threads..it did not happen this time. Many people have complained here about QC, reliability, ruggedness etc ....this was not addressed at the Q&A in any meaningful way. There is in fact a long list of positive things that in my opinion Leica could have said and explained that they are hopefully actioning but they chose not to. I find that surprising and actually concerning."

........................................................................................

I nearly fell off my chair :D:D

Frank you have to smile a little at yourself there.

 

To be more serious, surely the arrival of the M9 represents the biggest move for the M system in recent times and after all it is now just one year old. I think it is unreasonable to expect that it would be then be changed so soon. Production is only just starting to catch up with demand for a start.

 

I thought that the Q&A session reported for us was very good, actually. It addressed the common themes from the thread where they were collected.

[stevelap]

s

 

Trouble is, an mFT camera is not really compact, even with the pancake lens. As you suggested, the Nikon P7000 fits the bill and is much less expensive than a D-Lux 5 - I've just bought one.

 

Just bought one today too.

[Guest BigSplash]

Yes, but those lenses were designed by Iain Neil, a world famous lens designer who worked for Panavision (now he lives in Switzerland). Neil says: "The base set of 8 lenses, from wide angle to long focal length, derive from a single optical design approach and construction. I created a new optical design, which is patent pending, and it covers the whole range of lenses. They all derive from one core optical design which involves using more than one aspherical surface. That’s the key thing". He recruited a team of top-class engineers for the optical and mechanical design of those lenses. I don't know if there was an engineer from Leica Camera in that team.

 

The Summilux-C lenses are not "good" or "very good" cinema lenses, they are a quantum leap forward in optical and mechanical design of cinema lenses. In Iain Neils' own words: "This was not going to be a series of lenses that’s just a mere improvement over what’s been there before. This was a situation that happens every quarter century, where you can make a quantum leap in lens design as opposed to an improvement".

 

Read a practical confirmation of Roger Deakins, one of the best active directors of photography:

 

Roger Deakins, ASC, BSC • View topic - New Leica lenses for cinema?

 

The Leica Summilux-C lenses were developed by CW Sonderoptic Wetzlar, a 100% subsidiary of ACM Project Development Company (owned by Kaufmann). Do you know what? The Managing director of Sonderoptic was... Alfred Schopf!

 

The development of the lenses was an initiative of Dr. Kaufmann, Christian Skrein and Otto Nemenz.

 

You can read more information about the development of Summilux-C lenses at "Film and Digital Times", issue 32-33, June 2010.

 

Rosuna I believe that the importance of CW Sonderoptik within ACM ambitions should not be underestimated. Look at some facts and draw your own conclusions:

• CW Sonderoptik makes very high end lenses with price not being an issue. The previous MD is now the CEO of Leica.
  
• While Dr Kaufmann was still CEO Leica developed the S2 which is in a very different price bracket to the M9, X1 or any other Leica products. It requires a new support approach which they are addressing.
  
• Herr Shindler was originally chosen by Dr Kaufmann as last year's CEO presumably as his pedigree matched the strategic direction....ex Zeiss also known for very high end optics and not cameras. Herr Shindler has left Leica for reasons we do not know but presumably since sales of M9 have been high and indeed so have the lenses P&L performance seems to be an unlikely reason for his departure.
  

Maybe at the next Photokina things will become clearer for Leica and S2, as well as the future direction of M series, X1 etc.

[bill]

Fetch the armchair...

[Guest BigSplash]

Fast forwarding to the next page of replies!!........

........................................................................................

"I think there was a missed opportunity to widen the scope of the M9 to make it a more useful system offering as I have said in previous threads..it did not happen this time. Many people have complained here about QC, reliability, ruggedness etc ....this was not addressed at the Q&A in any meaningful way. There is in fact a long list of positive things that in my opinion Leica could have said and explained that they are hopefully actioning but they chose not to. I find that surprising and actually concerning."

........................................................................................

I nearly fell off my chair :D:D

Frank you have to smile a little at yourself there.

 

To be more serious, surely the arrival of the M9 represents the biggest move for the M system in recent times and after all it is now just one year old. I think it is unreasonable to expect that it would be then be changed so soon. Production is only just starting to catch up with demand for a start.

 

I thought that the Q&A session reported for us was very good, actually. It addressed the common themes from the thread where they were collected.

 

Geoff please explain why you nearly fell off your chair and why I should smile a little. I have reread Page 1 of this thread (Andy's account of the Q&A). I see nothing about:

• Ruggedness which is one reason often given why pros do not use Leica anymore.
  
• QC is mentioned as something that is so good at Leica that it has limited production output. It odes not refer to the new cameras that clients have to return for recallibration, or that do not work which regretably is reported very often here.
  
• Reliability ..is not mentioned in the Q&A, perhaps because it is not an issue, in which case it is a differentiator.
  

I agree that the M9 was a milestone for Leica and the photographic industry. It was a superb technology achievement, and it would be great if Leica can simply sitback and enjoy the ramped up sales volumes for ever without any need to show a M9.2 or M10.

 

The reality is that the M8 had a large sales surge when it was introduced and a very good second year but then sales dropped very quickly indeed. Maybe Leica should learn from this and plan as other companies do to bring out a new product before the old one naturally dies on them. This was my first point.

 

At this point in time they have for the first time M9 bodies ex stock at dealers and it has been reported that at least one dealer has started discounting (£150 only), while used cameras are now on ebay!. We shall in my view see more of this in coming months.

 

I also feel that Leica need to offer more accessories for the M9 to make it more usable as a system camera or an offering that better targets a market segment such as wedding photographers, or travelling executives etc. There was no announcement in this direction at Photokina or within the Q&A as being a strategy for Leica.

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[bill]

The reality is that the M8 had a large sales surge when it was introduced and a very good second year but then sales dropped very quickly indeed. Maybe Leica should learn from this and plan as other companies do to bring out a new product before the old one naturally dies on them. This was my first point.

 

You actually believe this, don't you? How stupid do you think they are?

 

At this point in time they have for the first time M9 bodies ex stock at dealers and it has been reported that at least one dealer has started discounting (£150 only), while used cameras are now on ebay!. We shall in my view see more of this in coming months.

 

No shit.

 

Welcome to the real world. Shock! Horror!! Leicas sold ex-stock!! Dealers starting to discount a year after product launch!!! Used cameras now on eBay - how distasteful! They should remain in short supply at full price and the hoi-polloi can't be allowed to use them!

 

I also feel that Leica need to offer more accessories for the M9 to make it more usable as a system camera or an offering that better targets a market segment such as wedding photographers, or travelling executives etc. There was no announcement in this direction at Photokina or within the Q&A as being a strategy for Leica.

 

Hark, I hear an old and broken drum banging... or is it the muffled thud of a dead horse being flogged. Again.

 

And again.

 

I'm going out for some fresh air; I can't stand the fug in here. Another useful thread has been derailed. Shame.

[Guest BigSplash]

A new glass magnifier for the M cameras, Elmar ASPH 24mm, the Pradovit, 4 lenses for the S system, tethering software for the S2 camera, different firmware updates for different cameras, profiles for Lightroom, the Titanium M9 (it was an interesting design exercise with Leica's interaction), or even the Summilux-C lenses (I don't know if there was some participation from Leica's engineers at some point)... new lenses for Panasonic compact cameras, a new macro lens for micro 4/3 camera (all this implies design of design supervision, but it is work)... new logistics system, new manufacturing organization for the S camera, Leitz-Park (the buildings are more or less ready...)... a lot of activity in very different fields... "But apart from that what have the Romans done for us?"

 

They need to improve many things, but that is a different story.

 

Kaufmann is investing money in Leica. He is the owner. They have been involved in a deep restructuring process, a very costly process. Sales cannot increase without a complete portfolio. Now they have it, and sales are increasing, and profits.

 

The details of the plan do not include particular products, but that is logical. We know the S, M and X systems (and compact cameras), are the 3 lines in which Leica will concentrate their efforts. I am more confident about Leica's future now. A 24x36 reflex system cannot be profitable in the long term. They will not go that route. An all new system developed under pressure is not good news either. They will not go that route. They will develop further the S system, looking at the market, in a flexible way. They will develop the M system, and the improvements will be shared with a possible mirrorless variant in the system. This new camera is not developed for the R lenses, but as a natural evolution in the M system itself (CMOS sensors are evolving, electronic viewfinders are improving, the same for OLED screens... etc. so it is a question of time). The X cameras are another growing niche. Sigma and Ricoh were the pioneers here, but Leica did it well (better) with the X1. New technology will bring new models (X2, etc.), as usual. It is a promising line. In comparison, the 4/3 reflex cameras (Digilux 3) was the result of a bad decision. Leica may rebrand Panasonic cameras for those lines out of reach for them (compact cameras), but future X models may offer better image quality than micro 4/3 cameras, and Leica can do that by itself (I would suggest even larger sensors for the next Xs).

 

We don't know about particular products but we know that the lines are closed, and the resources will be concentrated on that. The first cameras of those lines are selling well, generating resources for a self-sustained development. Synergies and sharing of components are necessary, but they know it and I guess they will figure out how to do it.

 

I am optimist at this moment.

 

Rosuna I am optimistic also. However there are many factual errors in your list such as many of the developments have been done without Leica R&D resources, and there are no buildings for Leica Camera AG in Wetzlar (They have the land but building work has not started as yet).

 

If your point is that Leica has a committed very productive R&D team I fully agree. You say that Leica should focus S, M and X as the three lines and I also agree. Other adventures such as Pradovit wasted resources in my view.

 

If you are optimistic so am I provided they manage to maintain the cash cow of the M series. In my view they should start building on the success of M9 quickly enough to maintain the momentum when sales drop off as will enevitably happen. Hopefully this is a development that is well underway and remains secret currently.

 

The question is how long do they have before they announce M10 and by so doing defacto kill off the M9. The M10 will need to be a significant step as it will I believe need to feature a CMOS full frame sensor, probably offer Liveview, have a 5fps (or more) consecutive shutter speed better than 20 frames buffer memory to just keep up with today's competing products, plus offer Thethering, Flash sync ....and most likely at least focus verification, and arguably HD video. etc etc.

 

Reading your list of R&D achievements, the apparent productivity of the team and noting that the main devt work on M9 completed in early 2009 I am surprised that M10 was not announced at Photokina or maybe we get to see it later today 10-10-10.