NZDavid Posted October 4, 2010 Share #21 Posted October 4, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) The M9 is undoubtedly a brilliant camera but it certainly is a lot of spondulix! It may sound like heresy on this forum, but as an alternative, have you considered a film Leica, like an M6, M3, M2, M4, etc? Team it up with a 50 'cron in good condition and you will be paying under the third the cost of a new M9. And you will be able to shoot lots of film. The advantage is you will get to find out if you like rangefinder photography, and if you decide to sell, the camera and lens will not have devalued -- and then, if you are still keen, you can still invest in an M9. If this idea appeals, you could ask more specific questions on different models over on the film forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 4, 2010 Posted October 4, 2010 Hi NZDavid, Take a look here Should I take the M9 jump!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest stnami Posted October 4, 2010 Share #22 Posted October 4, 2010 Buy a heap of plane tickets and take photos instead Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 4, 2010 Share #23 Posted October 4, 2010 Thank you for all the great responses. Decisions, decisions indeed. For the moment I'll stick to reading and tying to get more insight on 'M photography'. Gosh this isn't getting any easier... End of the day I think it is to decide if the X1 has been working out for you (I believe it has looking at your images) and if your SLR can cover the rest. The M9 is bigger, better IQ, but more problems to contend with not to mention more lenses to buy. Whats to stop you from subsequently lusting after the S2 or other MF cameras? Honestly you can also look at phase one, mamiya, Hasseblad. Since we are going to blow that much on a camera might as well go for the ultimate? Anyway compared to the X1 the M9 is still large, and the S2 is a little larger than a DSLR only. Frankly those thoughts did enter my head when I was considering the M9. I came to the conclusion that camera lust will likely never end and we'll never be satisfied. For me I will continue to use the X1 as often as I can since it is only a little over half a year meanwhile keeping an eye on development of the Ms. I think the M10 which is less fragile, with problems sorted out, with the maestro software of the S2 pumped into it will have much more lasting appeal for me. From the look of things leica simply cannot afford not to innovate and push new products quicker than they are used to, to meet the onslaught of other camera makers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardM8 Posted October 4, 2010 Author Share #24 Posted October 4, 2010 Buy a heap of plane tickets and take photos instead But then I'll have get out of here and move to some travel forum!... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsrockit Posted October 4, 2010 Share #25 Posted October 4, 2010 If you can afford to do so, then do it. Keep the X1 though... there are still times when I don't feel like bringing my M8.2 (still relatively heavy) and bring my X1 instead (very light). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardM8 Posted October 4, 2010 Author Share #26 Posted October 4, 2010 End of the day I think it is to decide if the X1 has been working out for you (I believe it has looking at your images) and if your SLR can cover the rest. The M9 is bigger, better IQ, but more problems to contend with not to mention more lenses to buy. Whats to stop you from subsequently lusting after the S2 or other MF cameras? Honestly you can also look at phase one, mamiya, Hasseblad. Since we are going to blow that much on a camera might as well go for the ultimate? You're right on the first point CJ. The X1 does work out for me. Even better than I thought it would. But that doesn't mean there is nothing left to wish for. I do miss a viewfinder and those slide-on thingies don't work for me. I also miss manual focus. I used manual focus Zeiss primes on my Canon SLR (I've sold all my SLR gear btw). The AF from the X1 is one of the few things no to rave about so this doesn't really help to forget the manual focus experience. I must also admit that I missed very few shots with the X1 due to the AF but it still, it does annoy me from time to time. In realistic terms I think that an M9 is the - or at least very close to - the ultimate camera digital available now. Opposite to a Dlux2 I had (no surprise here), the X1 got me into the Leica world and images with the 'Leica look' very convincingly. I didn't expect that I would enjoy the images and using the camera as much as I do. And the M9 seems to take the whole Leica experience to the maximum level. In every aspect. Unfortunately for your wallet too... And I'm a huge fan of German engineering too so even holding an M with lens makes we weak in the knees. Does this mean I have decided for an M9? Certainly not. Nor do I think it's the perfect camera. It's much too quirky for that. Will it blow the doors off the X1 on IQ? I don't think so. A little step up at best and only under certain circumstances and with the right lens is my guess. The price-tag is insane too. But will it be enjoyable to use and own? I think my answer would be yes to that one. Sigh... so much for this episode of my luxury problem. Thanks for bearing with me! Richard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elgenper Posted October 4, 2010 Share #27 Posted October 4, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) .... But will it be enjoyable to use and own? I think my answer would be yes to that one...... Me again, after you´ve had lots of good advice from others... During my digital period, I´ve owned and used everythig from a Digital Ixus to a Nikon D200 with beastly heavy pro zooms; the latter taught me forcibly that I can either carry lots of gear or enjoy shooting, but not both at the same time. And my Digilux 2 and D-Lux 4 relegated everything else to the cupboard or auction sites... But the Digilux 2 was a bit short of state-of-art results, even though it produced very beautiful images in optimal circumstances. And the D-Lux 4 was a fiddly pocket camera, even though one of the very best in that breed. So I had all but decided to get an X1 to replace the Digilux, and finally had the chance to try it in the flesh. Retracting lens, just like the D-Lux 4. Fiddly MF, just like the D-Lux 4. Big sensor and IQ even above the incredible Digilux 2, but without the rigid lens and manual focus ring that could be accurately preset even before turning on the camera. So: the X1 would be another one in the long row of ´compromise cameras´ that lined up in my cupboard: very good, but not quite there. Film was out (I still own both M and R film gear, but no way...). I decided to get the M9 and get over with it. Now, I´ve had it for almost exactly 7 months, and have got some perspective (finished editing this summer´s images earlier today). And I find that I shoot more than double the number of pics a week that I did before, and the proportion of keepers is far higher, too. And I enjoy every minute I´m out shooting, more than I ever did before! Also, I do MUCH less post processing than with any other camera I´ve owned; now it´s mostly good right out of the camera after slight adjustments of light temperature and exposure parameters when necessary. And the IQ blows everything else out of the water! I´m 68 now, have been in photography since my teens, but my legs are beginning to fail me; I can´t carry much if I want to be able to shoot as well. But the M9 is always with me, walking the dog, going to parties & c; not even my tiny, good D-Lux 4 can make me leave the M9 at home. I´m profoundly happy I did take the M9 jump while I still have the ability to use it, and the results continue to amaze me every single day. While I hope it won´t happen until several years from now, the M9 is the camera I´ll be buried with.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsrockit Posted October 4, 2010 Share #28 Posted October 4, 2010 Will it blow the doors off the X1 on IQ? I don't think so. A little step up at best and only under certain circumstances and with the right lens is my guess. The price-tag is insane too. But will it be enjoyable to use and own? I think my answer would be yes to that one. That is the key... some cameras just feel better to use and make you want to go out and use them... that is what the M series has always been for me. They make photography the most enjoyable for me. Sometimes that is worth the extra cash. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted October 4, 2010 Share #29 Posted October 4, 2010 When in college, all I had was a Waltz Envoy/50 2.0 Nippon Kogau (Nikkor) lens fixed. Tried focal converters. Horrid results. Well one lens forces you to learn to use it. I did learn. Month after graduation, I got a Pentax Spotmatic with 28/35/50/85/135/200 lenses. Called Selwyn at the big shop in Chicago, Wabash & Randolph, and he packed it up for me. I double parked, ran in, paid, and went home. It was like Christmas and I never owned a non interchangeable lens camera again. Leicas came 15 years later in the early 80`s. Double Christmas. When a single lens drives you crazy enough or there is some other technical obstruction, then pick the next one. In the mean time, keep honing the style. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Overview Posted October 4, 2010 Share #30 Posted October 4, 2010 "AAaaarrrgggghhhh !!!!!" Keep it simple: go for LUST!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted October 4, 2010 Share #31 Posted October 4, 2010 Per -- Your history sounds similar to mine, as i debate the x1 vs m9 -- and for the very reason you bought the m9 is the very reason i am going to as well, a 55th birthday present to myself. the stories about dead pixels and cracked sensors and sending the camera back to get the focusing adjusted is a bit scary for a purchase of that much money. have you had any repair issues? also, what is the one lens you find yourself using the most? i have been using a 35mm and a 50mm on my canon f1n to see which one i want, curious as to what you end up using most. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted October 4, 2010 Share #32 Posted October 4, 2010 And I find that I shoot more than double the number of pics a week that I did before, and the proportion of keepers is far higher, too This is usually due to a lack of discipline when it comes to self editing (the old :the camera has made me better syndrome) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardM8 Posted October 5, 2010 Author Share #33 Posted October 5, 2010 Ha!.. Now this is good news. I talked to my Leica dealer yesterday about my dilemma. Turns out they have a loan M8 available specifically for this purpose! Customers who are interested in an M but don't know if they get along with a rangefinder and/or like it enough to spend the money. They said there's only one obligation; you have to use it for a week. Not just two days, that is too short to get a good idea and feel of M photography. Costs nothing! I already thought they were an excellent Leica dealer but this goes further than I expected. I will be picking it up today with a 28 mm lens. I'll keep you posted of course! Richard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 5, 2010 Share #34 Posted October 5, 2010 Richard, thats the way to go! Please update us, everything you feel about the M8 vs X1. Love to hear your thoughts. I went thru the M8" trial" too haha. BTW, didnt know you no longer have the canon. In that case, thats a compelling reason to buy the M9 albeit with a few more lenses. I think the X1 covers 90% of most shooting but macro and sports you do need something else. CJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elgenper Posted October 5, 2010 Share #35 Posted October 5, 2010 This is usually due to a lack of discipline when it comes to self editing (the old :the camera has made me better syndrome) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardM8 Posted October 5, 2010 Author Share #36 Posted October 5, 2010 OK I have it. My own M8 + a modest 28 Elmarit for an entire week! With the crop-factor the Elmarit-M ASPH is about as close as you can get to the X1 Elmarit lens. And what a tiny lens it is! It's a black version with good looking traces of use all over it. The M8 has the mat annodised 'Gunmetal' finish that is by far the best looking imo. Much better than the paint finish from the 8.2 and M9. Gosh what a beautiful metal lump of a camera... A solid brick of high quality German engineering. The feel of the switch, shutter release, aperture and most of all, the focus ring. Superb, there really is no other word for it. Although I've never ever used a rangefinder before, the viewfinder and focussing don't look alien to me at all. On the contrary, the view and focussing are great. I'm not saying it doesn't take any practice and experience though. It definitely does but I got the first 15 shots I took all spot on. I think you have to develop a 'feel' for the distance of the subject and the position of the lever to get (close to) focus really quick. I think I can crack that nut but the coming week will tell. On my X1 I always set aperture manually too so the only new and extra step is the manual focus. And that is a joy to do so... Another thing that is already dawning on me is that an M is indeed a very capable street shooter. You can set the aperture and focus and you're ready to snap in an instant. No lag no nothing. This is something that is very cumbersome (and annoying) to say the least with the X1. The shot below was the 3rd frame I shot. I pre-set the camera and shot it holding the camera on my lap without looking through the finder. I LOVE this! The images I shot so far look great, no surprise here. My first impression is that they are a little noisier at ISO 160 than the X1 is at ISO 100 but I'm not sure yet. From ISO 320 on it's definitely noisier than the X1. A little sub-standard for a camera at this price level imo. But I understand that the M9 is a little better on this point. The images do look VERY good. I can't put my finger on it yet but they look different and I think leaning towards (even) better than the images from the X1. More palpable if that is possible. They hold up good in post too. Very robust files. So I'm having a good start with the M. I know these are all open doors for experienced M users and I'm obviously in 'new toy euphoria' now. Let's see if a different view emerges in the coming days. Oh and... I love this place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 5, 2010 Share #37 Posted October 5, 2010 The M9 has better high iso for sure. Are you bothered by the "heavier" shutter of the M8? I was. But heard the M9 has a smoother and quieter shutter. I think you ought to buy the M9 Richard, from what I gather you're sold. I wasnt convinced by the M8 so I am still at odds and probably wait out for the M10 or revised M9. The product development manager said the S2 image processing algorithm "Maestro" will be implemented to the other range, and I think I want that in my M, plus the possibility of AF say in the R solution which may still appear. It appears you are fine with MF, try taking loads of pictures and if you still enjoy then it must be the camera for you. For some the lack of AF is not a liability, for me it is, maybe I am lazy (sometimes) haha. Do keep us posted. May help me make up my mind too. CJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardM8 Posted October 5, 2010 Author Share #38 Posted October 5, 2010 The M9 has better high iso for sure. I'm not so sure CJ. From the very thorough and solid reviews from Sean Reid I understand that the M8 and M9 are virtually identical on noise but it seems that the M9 applies more noise reduction from ISO 640 on. Also in the DNG files. Highly recommend reviews btw!! Yes the shutter produces quite a 'clunk'. That surprised me too. But the M9 is indeed more silent and softer sounding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 5, 2010 Share #39 Posted October 5, 2010 I'm not so sure CJ. From the very thorough and solid reviews from Sean Reid I understand that the M8 and M9 are virtually identical on noise but it seems that the M9 applies more noise reduction from ISO 640 on. Also in the DNG files. Highly recommend reviews btw!! Yes the shutter produces quite a 'clunk'. That surprised me too. But the M9 is indeed more silent and softer sounding. I thought I read some reviews that says the M9 has at least slightly better high iso than M8, not surprising since it is newer? Have you tried the M9 yet? The shutter is a lot better than M8? What bothered me for the M8 shutter is I think it can generate some vibration. I also carried the M8 and noticed it has a bit of noticeable weight, comparable to an APS- DSLR, only smaller. So while it gains in smaller size the heavier feel is nice as mark of quality but I am not 100% sure nice if I have to lug it all day, not to mention I know myself I WILL end up with a couple of lenses so it will be like a DSLR cycle once again? Also, the price puts it in a position (for me) that I feel I must take care of the camera. I feel that will reduce my enjoyment. I havent made up my mind 100% yet, but currently still leans towards a more improved M9, where I do not hear of IR sensor glass cracking, etc,etc scary.....after all, from film heritage Leicas are supposed to be built like tanks! The M8.2 seems more my idea of a good digital M, but I want full frame, the M9 improvements in it, hopefully the Maestro thrown in, greedy eh? please update with more photos, I am sure they can only get better. Right now I think they are comparable if not worse than the X1 photos you have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThorkilB Posted October 5, 2010 Share #40 Posted October 5, 2010 Hi Richard If you got the money, just by the M9! I was considering the X1, but just as you mention, to walk around with preset focus and aperture is just everything, and no shutterlag, to shot from the hip, looking up and just shot by instinct when the monemt is there. That meens everything. I have to sell my Nikon D3 (no tears) but keep my M6, my film-Hasselblads, but it will be the M9 that will be hanging around with me, just as I used the M6 severel years ago, when film was the only world. But now I need the digital M6, full frame. But gi for just one lense and use it all the time. Mine will be a 21 Elmarit (never used the 50 or the 90), but go for an 24 (perhaps used Elmarit, they should be ok, and are small and nice) or 28 or 35, and stick to that, and go near the the object's as you just have shown. And forgot to mention. As you can see around the colours of the M9 are so natural, opposite the M8 which are too vivid, plus the full-frame which are a must (and the bigger and better files for A3 printing). Good luck Thorkil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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