Two Dead M9s

[glenerrolrd]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Franz, I currently have two M7's, an M8 and an M9 as well as a Mamiya 7II system. I am fully equipped, but right now Leica have three of my core focal lengths in their possession (28/35/50), returned because the job was botched the first time. This means I will need to take the Mamiya 7II to Louisiana while the Leica remain shelved at home. What the Mamiya does it does very well. Simply unrivaled in the 6x7 format, and drum scanned results up to a 16x20 inch print are on par with what I can achieve with my 4x5. But the Mamiya offers nowhere the discreteness of the Leica.

 

Jeff

 

I have had and used 8 different Leica digital M bodies since the M8 was introduced. All but one required service and a few bodies more than once. They have had a backlog and been "overwhelmed " since the initial M8 with few exceptions. They don t recognize that service delays,long turn around , non existent communications and shoddy quality contol at the source .

 

The first lesson learned was check you body the day you get it with a reference lens you know is perfect, Return any defective body the day you get to whom ever you bought from. DAG is a great source for lens and body calibration . If you can buy a M9 and a 28 summicron you can afford to spend another $2-300 to get it right. This is particularly important if the lens is not new. This doesn t void you warranty although you can t expect Leica to adjust the RF for free if someone messes with it. If I would have done this from the beginning I could have saved 70-80% of my issues with service.

 

The second lesson is the digital M s are in no way reliable (others experience may differ ..in which case they don t know much about service). I have had two misaligned sensors ,the coffee stain LCD ,a broken sensor and the sensor line problem in 8 bodies . These are things that only Leica can fix and are quality control issues either with leica or their suppliers.

 

I have been lucky in that I haven t shot myself in the foot by dropping my equipment or damaging it . I ve been lucky . But if I break it I expect Leica to fix it in a less than 3 months.

 

Since I shoot with two bodies and would prefer not to spend days waiting for Leica to respond ....I always have a 3rd body . Wasteful... depends on how important it is to have 2 working bodies and not suffer with calibration issues .

 

Now add to this that when I sold my 2 M8.2 and my M8U that had been recently upgraded . Two were found to have defects . The coffee stain and the sensor line . These are bodies that had less than 5000 actuations but enough that I should have found them . So blown sales ,delays of weeks and relistings at lower prices for problems that are acknowledged component failures.

 

Two of the 3 M9 required calibration against lenses that had just been calibrated for the M8.2 s .

 

Leica has no intention of changing or addressing any of these issues . To expect otherwise isn t realistic. The M9 is the perfect camera for most of my shooting and its worth it to me to maintain a fully operation kit . Your experience or needs maybe different but this is a pretty decent amount of history .

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[AlanG]

Jeff

 

I have had and used 8 different Leica digital M bodies since the M8 was introduced. All but one required service and a few bodies more than once. They have had a backlog and been "overwhelmed " since the initial M8 with few exceptions. They don t recognize that service delays,long turn around , non existent communications and shoddy quality contol at the source .

 

The first lesson learned was check you body the day you get it with a reference lens you know is perfect, Return any defective body the day you get to whom ever you bought from. DAG is a great source for lens and body calibration . If you can buy a M9 and a 28 summicron you can afford to spend another $2-300 to get it right. This is particularly important if the lens is not new. This doesn t void you warranty although you can t expect Leica to adjust the RF for free if someone messes with it. If I would have done this from the beginning I could have saved 70-80% of my issues with service.

 

The second lesson is the digital M s are in no way reliable (others experience may differ ..in which case they don t know much about service). I have had two misaligned sensors ,the coffee stain LCD ,a broken sensor and the sensor line problem in 8 bodies . These are things that only Leica can fix and are quality control issues either with leica or their suppliers.

 

I have been lucky in that I haven t shot myself in the foot by dropping my equipment or damaging it . I ve been lucky . But if I break it I expect Leica to fix it in a less than 3 months.

 

Since I shoot with two bodies and would prefer not to spend days waiting for Leica to respond ....I always have a 3rd body . Wasteful... depends on how important it is to have 2 working bodies and not suffer with calibration issues .

 

Now add to this that when I sold my 2 M8.2 and my M8U that had been recently upgraded . Two were found to have defects . The coffee stain and the sensor line . These are bodies that had less than 5000 actuations but enough that I should have found them . So blown sales ,delays of weeks and relistings at lower prices for problems that are acknowledged component failures.

 

Two of the 3 M9 required calibration against lenses that had just been calibrated for the M8.2 s .

 

Leica has no intention of changing or addressing any of these issues . To expect otherwise isn t realistic. The M9 is the perfect camera for most of my shooting and its worth it to me to maintain a fully operation kit . Your experience or needs maybe different but this is a pretty decent amount of history .

 

Geez... It seems to me that there is also an opportunity for DAG to become a Leica dealer to check and calibrate the lenses and bodies that they sell.

[glenerrolrd]

Geez... It seems to me that there is also an opportunity for DAG to become a Leica dealer to check and calibrate the lenses and bodies that they sell.

 

He essentially does that for a good number of M9 users in the USA. The calibration problem is well documented. Some of it is to be expected if you have a set of lens that predate the digital bodies. The tolerances that worked well for film aren t tight enough for digital. Add to that the rough handling you might get in shipping and some calibration issues are to be expected .

 

But you have to start with a tight calibration of the body ...the M8 s were not tight enough..the M8.2 and M9 s are really pretty good...but you can knock them off especially during travel . These are not generally hard problems to solve unless you are dealing with 6+ week turnaround . That plus way too many lenses aren t calibrated tight enough from the factory.

 

This is something I have just accepted as required maintenance and if you use DAG or others ..then the service turnaround is much less of a problem. So I consider calibration as maintenance and I try not to use Leica service .

[phancj]

Gosh! I know it may not be the intention of the Op but these threads are really discouraging....

[jplomley]

Well, I have an update. Leica is going to do everything possible to ensure the repair is completed before my trip. Keeping my fingers crossed they come through on their commitment.

[phancj]

Well, I have an update. Leica is going to do everything possible to ensure the repair is completed before my trip. Keeping my fingers crossed they come through on their commitment.

 

Thats more reassuring...seems like they are trying, or say they are trying.

[jplomley]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Oh, I can't fault them for trying. The Leica NJ group is dedicated and they are very responsive. They are truly focussed on customers service and want to make everything right when there is a problem. I have my own theories regarding the issues I encountered and why they happened, but not trying or lack of dedication is not one of them.

[wlaidlaw]

I have already made the suggestion in writing to a Leica board member, that each country which has significant M sales, should have an official Leica rangefinder adjustment service, which can offer a quick turn around. I think it is inevitable that a heavily used M, particularly a digital one, which demands more from the rangefinder, will need tweaking from time to time. The point I made is that my car does not have to go back to Stuttgart to have its wheel tracking adjusted, so why should my Leica M's have to go to Solms.

 

I get my M9 back on Tuesday of next week, a very quick 2 1/2 week turn around for an adjustment to the RF vertical alignment but a local service should be able to offer a one week turn around and would reduce the pressure on Solms and New Jersey, to do more complicated repairs of sensors, shutters etc. I have been told that my suggestion has been circulated for comment. The service centre could be based in either one of the major dealers or at a recognised Leica repairer.

 

Wilson

[glenerrolrd]

I have already made the suggestion in writing to a Leica board member, that each country which has significant M sales, should have an official Leica rangefinder adjustment service, which can offer a quick turn around. I think it is inevitable that a heavily used M, particularly a digital one, which demands more from the rangefinder, will need tweaking from time to time. The point I made is that my car does not have to go back to Stuttgart to have its wheel tracking adjusted, so why should my Leica M's have to go to Solms.

 

I get my M9 back on Tuesday of next week, a very quick 2 1/2 week turn around for an adjustment to the RF vertical alignment but a local service should be able to offer a one week turn around and would reduce the pressure on Solms and New Jersey, to do more complicated repairs of sensors, shutters etc. I have been told that my suggestion has been circulated for comment. The service centre could be based in either one of the major dealers or at a recognised Leica repairer.

 

Wilson

 

Good suggestion ...although Leica could do this today (at least in the USA) by establishing a calibration work cell with all the testing equipment and processes organized for quick turn around. It really comes down to dedicating the capacity and committing to rapid throughput. You have to staff the work cell to meet the demand by having the ability to add technicians to keep on schedule. And for sure there is no excuse to lose anytime due to shipping ..it goes out the day its finished.

 

But if Leica had a authorized service location in say NYC ..I might prefer to take the stuff in myself ..even if I had to schedule a service call..that would be great.

 

.

 

If Leica had one week in shop turnaround they would get a lot more maintenance work. Calibration has been 70-80% of all my service problems and the results have been poor. The real problems sensor,LCD have all been 100% well done and generally on time.

[wlaidlaw]

Roger,

 

I totally agree with what you say. I will somewhat reserve judgement until I see how well Solms have done my M9 but they made a mess of my M8, which came back far worse on the RF than it went for the frame/LCD upgrade and the T3 chip suite . I adjusted it myself, as it was the only digital body I had at that time and I had a job which could not wait. I sent it back afterwards with the MATE, which had also come back from service with the frame change not working. It did come back right the second time. If we have to go to the trouble of sending far far away, they do need to get it right first time.

 

Wilson

[glenerrolrd]

Roger,

 

I totally agree with what you say. I will somewhat reserve judgement until I see how well Solms have done my M9 but they made a mess of my M8, which came back far worse on the RF than it went for the frame/LCD upgrade and the T3 chip suite . I adjusted it myself, as it was the only digital body I had at that time and I had a job which could not wait. I sent it back afterwards with the MATE, which had also come back from service with the frame change not working. It did come back right the second time. If we have to go to the trouble of sending far far away, they do need to get it right first time.

 

Wilson

 

Wilson

 

This type of QC problem could be fixed in a few weeks if Leica agreed to a few changes. The easiest would be to add an inspection step to the process..where a 2nd individual would check the calibration before the item is cleared. Since many of us have learned to check our rangefinders ...how much skill is really required to do this. This is ,of course,inspecting in QC which is not a long term solution but would highlight the areas that are problems in the process.

 

Hopefully they are getting this type of advice from the Porsche engineers (that had the exact same problems until they brought in the engineers from Nissan a few years back). They made a worst to first improvement in initial QC .

 

You can see evidence of these changes in the assembly operations videos but service departments typically lag .

 

Distributing calibration capabilities to others would be great but they need to get it right first in Solms.

[wlaidlaw]

Roger,

 

As you might gather from my avatar I am a Porsche nerd. The Nissan people (and from other Japanese manufacturers) were I understand, brought in by Wendelin Wiedeking in the early 1990's to implement a "just in time" component delivery system rather than have anything to do with QC. QC had always been a by-word at Porsche, with even in the early days at Gmund in Austria, one in five workers being employed in QC.

 

Many years ago, I was a partner in a QC consultancy and we tried but failed to persuade a number of automobile manufacturers in the UK to institute the "Porsche System". I made a number of visits to Porsche in the late 1960's to study how they worked. I was at Porsche again in Zuffenhausen in July of this year and was amazed at some of their latest testing. They have built a rig, on which a 911 engine runs at full power on a dynamometer, while being tilted to all sorts of angles to simulate use on a race track. You can see it on youtube here

 

Now it would be nice to think that Leica could put this sort of testing and QC into place but until recently, I would guess the money just has not been there. Now after the huge success of the M9 and the money is there, a big push on QC, particularly on repairs, should be made. Things like the covers peeling off the X1's just should not happen.

 

Nothing is so good that it cannot be improved. My 2006 Porsche is significantly better screwed together and finished than my 2002 one was and in comparison to my classic rally car, a 1977 Carrera RS, it is a different world.

 

Wilson

[glenerrolrd]

Roger,

 

As you might gather from my avatar I am a Porsche nerd. The Nissan people (and from other Japanese manufacturers) were I understand, brought in by Wendelin Wiedeking in the early 1990's to implement a "just in time" component delivery system rather than have anything to do with QC. QC had always been a by-word at Porsche, with even in the early days at Gmund in Austria, one in five workers being employed in QC.

 

Many years ago, I was a partner in a QC consultancy and we tried but failed to persuade a number of automobile manufacturers in the UK to institute the "Porsche System". I made a number of visits to Porsche in the late 1960's to study how they worked. I was at Porsche again in Zuffenhausen in July of this year and was amazed at some of their latest testing. They have built a rig, on which a 911 engine runs at full power on a dynamometer, while being tilted to all sorts of angles to simulate use on a race track. You can see it on youtube here

 

Now it would be nice to think that Leica could put this sort of testing and QC into place but until recently, I would guess the money just has not been there. Now after the huge success of the M9 and the money is there, a big push on QC, particularly on repairs, should be made. Things like the covers peeling off the X1's just should not happen.

 

Nothing is so good that it cannot be improved. My 2006 Porsche is significantly better screwed together and finished than my 2002 one was and in comparison to my classic rally car, a 1977 Carrera RS, it is a different world.

 

Wilson

 

Wilson

 

Interesting similarities in our backgrounds . I was likewise a partner in my case a very large consulting firm and in the mid 80 s we brought much of the JIT manufacturing methods to the USA. Our team was installing closed loop mfg systems for Toyota and we recognized how the Toyota Production system worked so differently. So it was Toyota s system but we used it in different industries.

 

We had a lot of success implementing JIT manufacturing techniques especially in smaller mfg operations in the mid 80 s thru the mid 90 s but then SAP came along and our projects became huge and our work shifted to only the very large multinationals.

 

Like wise I am a Porsche guy with two 911 convertibles so I watched with interest when Porsche undertook the initial projects . Its seems to have worked well as the quality ratings have improved dramatically. If your firm helped on this Leica could use your help.

 

What most people don t realize is that leica in NJ for example is much smaller than a small Porsche dealership. When a technician goes out with an illness its a big deal . The supply chain is a nightmare with many parts bought on the outside from very small local manufacturers . So service runs out of parts frequently. Its a difficult service department to run for a lot of reasons.

 

But it would be so great if they had a dedicated work center for calibration in NYC where you could walk in for a quick adjustment. I understand that this was the norm 20years ago when many pros used the M s for PJ work.

 

Roger

[ho_co]

Roger, I don't know that such centers were ever run by Leica. Marty Forscher was the go-to-man for NYC repairs. (And probably others as well.)

 

Today we have people like Sherry and Don, both Leica-trained, who basically do what I think you're suggesting.

 

We'd all like to see something like your recommendation, but the two problems I see are: 1) the cameras today are no longer all-mechanical, and as such are less immediately repair-transparent; and 2) since (as you said) parts aren't always available, an immediate supply is an even greater problem for private centers than for Allendale.

[wlaidlaw]

Roger, I don't know that such centers were ever run by Leica. Marty Forscher was the go-to-man for NYC repairs. (And probably others as well.)

 

Today we have people like Sherry and Don, both Leica-trained, who basically do what I think you're suggesting.

 

We'd all like to see something like your recommendation, but the two problems I see are: 1) the cameras today are no longer all-mechanical, and as such are less immediately repair-transparent; and 2) since (as you said) parts aren't always available, an immediate supply is an even greater problem for private centers than for Allendale.

 

Howard,

 

What I have suggested to Leica is that people like Sherry and Don become officially Leica approved, so that they can do the rangefinder adjustment without compromising a warranty/guarantee. It was made clear to me by Leica UK, that only Solms and New Jersey could do this at present. There are a number of service people in the UK, who I would trust to do an equally good job. I may be wrong but I think the only person in the world who can re-silver early M RF prisms is CRR in the UK, although his waiting times are currently longer than Leica's, so maybe not a lot of gain there.

 

Wilson

[h00ligan]

That is painful! My sympathies! I had my 75 Cron adjusted too, and just trusted what I got back. It now seems OK

 

It seems we are at the cutting edge between mechanical and digital. Mastering that and also coping with increasing customer demand must create major headaches at Solms. They have my sympathy as well!

 

I'm not sure they need sympathy with the money they are charging for the m9. Also look at current other products with issues, like the x1.

 

I agree it seems leica have poor quality control, but beyond that...what if qc are catching a lot of the issues, and that many are coming through flawed in production? Just a thought.

[glenerrolrd]

Roger, I don't know that such centers were ever run by Leica. Marty Forscher was the go-to-man for NYC repairs. (And probably others as well.)

 

Today we have people like Sherry and Don, both Leica-trained, who basically do what I think you're suggesting.

 

We'd all like to see something like your recommendation, but the two problems I see are: 1) the cameras today are no longer all-mechanical, and as such are less immediately repair-transparent; and 2) since (as you said) parts aren't always available, an immediate supply is an even greater problem for private centers than for Allendale.

 

Howard You are exactly right about Marty being the guy that did this. DAG and Sherry both do this type of work as does Steve Choi (hope I spelled that right in LA). But you cant walk in or schedule same day service . Calibration as you well know can often be done with a reference body and reference lens ..not much equipment or space required other than a view to different distances. Calibration is really all mechanical unless the sensor is out of alignment.

 

Here is an idea ....fly DAG or Sherry to NYC a few times of year for a week and set them up to check rangefinders and do simple calibration efforts. Set a schedule and charge for the work . I bet that would draw a crowd . Leica used to do this themselves at the photo shows up until only a few years ago.

 

Point being there has to be a better way than waiting 6 weeks to have the vertical RF adjustment . Its not really a repair as much as routine maintenance if you are using your M everyday.

[AlanG]

Howard

Point being there has to be a better way than waiting 6 weeks to have the vertical RF adjustment . Its not really a repair as much as routine maintenance if you are using your M everyday.

 

Yes it is so routine that Leica should redesign it to include user adjustment. The lenses should be user adjustable too. This just can't be that complicated.

 

I don't know what is the current situation around the world, but in the 60s and 70s, it was common for most large cities in the US to have several camera repair shops that could adjust Leica rangefinders and lenses. I don't see why the addition of digital technology should make it hard to find competent people to do relatively simple mechanical adjustments on the cameras.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[ho_co]

The idea seems reasonable on its face, but Leica had its reasons for discontinuing the appointment of "authorized" repair centers in the '70s.

 

Look at how few people are actually Leica repair specialists today, authorized or not. (Haven't we named most of them?) I doubt that there's enough money in it for many more.

 

Something else that Leica and others used to do, and which I think might be feasible again, is the in-store repair clinic. Leica would send a repair technician with basic adjustment tools to spend a day or two doing CLA's in a dealership. But I'm not sure that ever made money for Leica, and some of the adjustments made at that time (shutter speed, meter adjustment) may require a totally different procedure with digital cameras.

 

Do Nikon and Canon still do in-store repair clinics? If not, the matter probably comes down to a question of economics and the move from analog to digital.

 

It would be interesting to compare today's Leica Service Centers to those of 40 years ago, and to do the same for one of the "big boys."

[Tina Manley]

If you register as a Leica professional photographer, Leica will expedite all repairs and send you loaner equipment if you need it. None of my repairs have taken over a week with overnight shipping both ways. Leica was sending me a loaner M8 when I had my shutter replaced (my fault) but I got my camera back before I received the loaner. I have no complaints with Leica professional service.

 

Tina