Two Dead M9s

[alexmann]

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I think that much of the negative comments on this forum lately are due to the fact that the customer base has gone through a radical change with the introduction of the M9 last year.

 

Suddenly Leica has been faced with a new customer (like me, after 19 years with a Contax RTS3 this is my first digital camera!), one used to Japanese levels of quality control and distinctly unused to the gestalt of the Leica brand.

 

The new customer voices what he/she feels are quite normal opinions of failings in the system which sometimes anger the cognoscenti and their posts of frustration are often met with a wall of vitriol and disapproval from the 'old hands', some of whom behave as though they have pay-masters. I hope that they will be more open-minded; it's quite alright to voice a negative opinion if you've had a negative experience, especially with the expense of the system.

 

I've had my own share of problems but not only do I want Leica to do better and to learn I want them to continue and to survive. I'm just glad that we have this brand.

 

One thing I am sure of is that, despite it's shortcomings, in the M9 I finally have something in my hands that has re-invigorated my interest in photography, gives me lenses that can tell the visual stories as I see them, and find poetry in images that I hoped were there but didn't dare hope to see.

Amen to that.

Alex

[Tina Manley]

One thing I am sure of is that, despite it's shortcomings, in the M9 I finally have something in my hands that has re-invigorated my interest in photography, gives me lenses that can tell the visual stories as I see them, and find poetry in images that I hoped were there but didn't dare hope to see.

Amen to that.

Alex

 

Thank goodness! Somebody knows why we buy Leicas.

 

Tina

[lincoln_m]

A dealer in Bath, England told me that when they get an M9 they are not allowed to open it, charge the battery, put in a memory card or fire the shutter! I'm not sure where this need for a virgin never been touched requirement has come from? Leica collectors, new Leica digital users?

 

This means the shop can't do a quick pre-sale check on the camera. With mechanical Ms you can cock and fire the shutter and feel the smoothness etc.

 

A Leica dealer should be allowed to have their own battery and SD card to run a few tests, delivery mileage if you will. That way the shop would say hey something isn't right and send it back or grab the Leica rep/sales when they visit and get a replacement. This would save customers like the OP from getting home only to find their 5Gs has bought a dud.

 

Surely there is a facility to reset the image number to 0000 on the M8/9s? Sorry I'm a MP, M7, M2 user. My MP needed to be used when bought from new and was the better for running in after a few films, don't know if the same can apply to an electronic M9.

 

Dodgy delicate connections would be my guess for most issues, and this is probably worse now that the EU have banned lead from the solder on electronic PCBs only because of the possibility that it may end up in the water supply. The Hassy X something 65mmx24mm panoramic fell foul of this new directive. When will any one be putting such a camera in landfill? Xbox 360 yes but Hassy or Leica cameras never.

 

This M9 forum has many sad stories. I feel sorry for the users trying to get to know Leica through such experiences.

 

Perhaps it is time to buy a 40 year old M2 and shoot some B&W film by judging the exposure by eye and bracketing. You could buy 2-3 quality used lenses and still have money left over.

 

No don't that'll put the used prices up still further for me.

 

Regards, Lincoln

[ho_co]

I don't see any post from Herr Spiller or from Leica on this issue. So, if there's one I'm not aware and you can inform me, I'll be very happy to read it.

 

Thanks, Art, for posting the link. (I'm sure you noticed who started the thread. )

 

I know we were all upset at first, but there was a palpable amelioration of the anger as more facts came out. From that thread, please see:

...

Though in a hurry he [spiller] gave me some details:

He and Mr Fischer talked nearly one and a half hour to the WELT journalists, who shortened the interview to what you read.

When they read the printed interview they asked themselves too:

Where did they leave the photographers?

...

 

I think that's solid enough, but you are entitled to want more.

[ho_co]

... I apologize for citing the alleged Spiller citation without checking the reality! ...

 

No need to apologize. It's an easy mistake to make over such an important and emotional issue.

 

First: How accurate is the attitude exhibited in the citation? See Andreas' citation of Mr Spiller above. Not at all accurate.

 

Second, and more important IMO: Why is it we put up with these quality lapses?

 

I raised the same question at http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/38105-contemplating-forgiveness-why-do-we-accept.html#post398587, and I wasn't the first to ask. The arguments made there are the same as ever, so you might want to check just my summary at http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/38105-contemplating-forgiveness-why-do-we-accept-8.html#post403867.

 

The cameras give good pictures. They feel good in the hand. And they make me (at least) want to improve. I don't get that from my SLR system. Alex and Tina said the same above.

 

But the matters of quality and service have been there since long before the internet, and we're still buying and still complaining.

 

 

The fact that the same questions appear here repeatedly reminds me of Cyrano's confidant Le Bret telling him:

 

Yes…

Tell this to all the world – And then to me

Say very softly that…She loves you not. (II. 459-461)

 

[ozdavid]

I am surprised that after more than 75 posts no one asked the OP which firmware the two failing M9's were on.

 

Best regards, Maarten

 

Maarten, they both had the current version 1.138..

 

I should give an update. As has been my experience over the years, I have been receiving excellent support from Solms. My bodies are winging their way home to the factory from Adeal and a replacement, carefully checked and tested at the factory will shortly come down to the Antipodes.

 

In many ways, I think that Tina says it all. Though I have not had the privilege of meeting her, I am a fervent admirer of such of her work as I see on this and other forums. Her use of Leica Ms inspires me, even though but an amateur, to try harder; to work at creating beautiful images reflective of societies we see struggling around the world.

 

That is why we treasure our Leicas. They offer us the potential to create something beautiful - by their simplicity, their precision and the pinnacle of excellence achieved by so much of their glass.

 

It is for this reason, not just a red dot, that makes these cameras so special.

 

It is perhaps also for this reason that we get so disappointed when QC issues let us down.

 

Thus in starting this thread, I was posing the question as to whether we might also be partly to blame. We continually pressure Leica to reach greater heights of innovation. to develop this and modify that.

 

The extraordinary success of the innovation that is the M9 can be seen from the fact that a year after its introduction, Leica, with an expanded workforce, is still trying to meet demand.

 

Shouldn't we pause; take time to enjoy the exquisite tools Leca has supplied us; for a short while stop asking for more goodies and say to Leica, take pause; concentrate now on perfecting your production line and QC - then come back and take your products, and us your loyal customers, to new heights?

 

David

[Guest imported_torben]

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Maarten, they both had the current version 1.138..

 

I should give an update. As has been my experience over the years, I have been receiving excellent support from Solms. My bodies are winging their way home to the factory from Adeal and a replacement, carefully checked and tested at the factory will shortly come down to the Antipodes.

 

In many ways, I think that Tina says it all. Though I have not had the privilege of meeting her, I am a fervent admirer of such of her work as I see on this and other forums. Her use of Leica Ms inspires me, even though but an amateur, to try harder; to work at creating beautiful images reflective of societies we see struggling around the world.

 

That is why we treasure our Leicas. They offer us the potential to create something beautiful - by their simplicity, their precision and the pinnacle of excellence achieved by so much of their glass.

 

It is for this reason, not just a red dot, that makes these cameras so special.

 

It is perhaps also for this reason that we get so disappointed when QC issues let us down.

 

Thus in starting this thread, I was posing the question as to whether we might also be partly to blame. We continually pressure Leica to reach greater heights of innovation. to develop this and modify that.

 

The extraordinary success of the innovation that is the M9 can be seen from the fact that a year after its introduction, Leica, with an expanded workforce, is still trying to meet demand.

 

Shouldn't we pause; take time to enjoy the exquisite tools Leca has supplied us; for a short while stop asking for more goodies and say to Leica, take pause; concentrate now on perfecting your production line and QC - then come back and take your products, and us your loyal customers, to new heights?

 

David

 

This post clearly demonstrates that this forum needs a new facility: the thumbs down "No Thanks" shortcut

[ozdavid]

I appreciate the succinctness of your disapproval!

 

If we all accept that Leica is a company of limited resources and we continue to pressure them to produce new things as a top priority, we should be careful what we wish for - in continually producing new things to satisfy our insatiable demands we cannot reasonably complain when resources get stretched too far!

 

Although the consequences of that may not affect everyone making the demands, especially if it happens that they are not buying new equipment, they are likely to affect some - as my recent experience demonstrates.

 

David

[mgreernz]

My response is also a thumbs down. For a start I don't recall too many requesting Leica to tempt them with a €23,000 M9ti. But I do recall countless numbers who are still clamoring for a common garden M9 and a couple of decent lens to go with it.

 

Retreat into the comfortable aesthetics of fine art photography if you will. But it doesn't compensate for muddled strategic directions, the under-resourcing of manufacturing, poor quality control, careless Customer Service and the failure of a company to meaningfully engage with its market.

 

So I plead again: Leica, why not? You have nothing lose and everything to gain from an honest and open conversation with us on these issues. We may even discover we are misunderstanding and unfairly maligning you. I dare you.

[ozdavid]

Michael,

 

I think that you and I are in heated agreement!

 

I applaud this forum encouraging Leica to communicate with us (and like many I am looking forward to the notes of the meeting last Saturday); to concentrate on producing more m9s and current lenses; to think thrice before diverting resources on limited edition trinkets; to encourage resources to be directed more to QC and related issues various forum members have described here.

 

What I'm not supporting is continual pressure for different devices until these things are happening. If Leica perceives that it is more important to produce something different to satisfy its customer base, whatever the cost in efficiency, QC and satisfying back orders,rather than concentrating on those things, then I think the message is both wrong and not in our best interests.

 

Regards

David

[Guest]

Deja Vu, I'm quite sorry to say. (Took me four M8 bodies till I got one working copy.)

Your M9 now, is it your first or your second?

[SJP]

M9 Sensor

 

Herr Schopf: Der M9 Sensor ist das heikelste Bauteil in der ganzen Kamera, dazu kommt, dass er erst getestet werden kann, wenn die Kamera komplett fertig gebaut ist.

Die Ursache für die auftretenden Deckglasbrüche wurde intensiv recherchiert: Der Grund lag im Fertigungsprozess beim Lieferanten. Das Problem ist abgestellt – sollte es auftreten, wird der Sensor natürlich kostenfrei gewechselt.

source: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-blog/de/2010/09/leica-fragestunde-photokina-das-protokoll/

 

My executive summary:

1 the sensor is the most critical (problematic/difficult) component of the camera, which can only be tested when the whole camera has been assembled

2 the cracked sensor problem was extensively studied and the cause was found to be with the production process of the supplier. This has been dealt with. If this problem does occur the sensor will obviously be replaced free of charge.

 

I am surprised about 1, can't you plug the sensor into a test rig to check functioning before mounting in the camera? Kodak provides circuit boards exactly for that purpose IIRC.

[hamey]

Why not get a collection ($) going on this forum so we can send them to Japan, they might learn something.

That includes Mr K, Yeah I know he's wealthy, but the JAPANESE might teach him something LIKE HOW TO BOW,

Especially to LEICA's LOYAL CUSTOMERS.

 

LOL.

 

Ken.

[biglouis]

It really is posts like this which is making me put off any decision to upgrade to an M9. Fortunately, my M8 continues (as indeed it should) to produce excellent results. I would like to have a camera system which provides better high iso results and the logical step given my intestment in Leica M lenses would be up to an M9 but frankly I do not feel like playing russian roulette with GBP 5,000 when I can obtain a complete Nikon or Canon system (body and lenses) for the same price and which from my research have more consistent quality control. If I do get to the point where high iso performance really is a deal breaker I think I would have to leave the Leica fold and go with either of those two systems. Shame really, I like rangefinders but I like having products which work and manufacturers who are more customer (rather than technology) focussed.

 

LouisB

[Tina Manley]

[quote=biglouis;1469450 Nikon or Canon system (body and lenses) for the same price and which from my research have more consistent quality control.

LouisB

 

If you were on Canon and Nikon forums, you would know that they have as many, if not more, problems with quality control. Before you decide to switch systems, be sure and compare a wide angle shot from any Canon or Nikon with one from a Leica M9. Examine the photo corner to corner at 100%. I don't think there is any way you would choose either over a Leica M9. Just saying!

 

Tina

[barjohn]

I haven't seen any where near the number of problems on Canon or Nikon forums and even if for arguments sake you were correct, how many cameras do each produce per month/year compared to Leica? In other words,problem posts as a percentage of production is minuscule for these makers. As a sampler of one I have owned both Canon and Nikon gear and Leica gear and never had any problems with the former but can't say the same for the latter, which I paid a premium for. Had I only had one Leica with a problem I might have tossed it off to bad luck but with two?

[Tina Manley]

Hope you never bought the Canon 1DMIII:

 

Rob Galbraith DPI: An analysis of EOS-1D Mark III autofocus performance

 

Tina

[jaapv]

Amazingly, these problems seem to occur mostly on the International forum and rarely on the German side.

[Guest trond]

Because Germans are patriots or get special treatment from Leica!?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[AlanG]

If you were on Canon and Nikon forums, you would know that they have as many, if not more, problems with quality control. Before you decide to switch systems, be sure and compare a wide angle shot from any Canon or Nikon with one from a Leica M9. Examine the photo corner to corner at 100%. I don't think there is any way you would choose either over a Leica M9. Just saying!

 

Tina

 

The Canon 17 TSE and new 24 TSE lenses are extremely good. The 17 is unique and doesn't have problems with pink corners. Nikon has just released some new wide angle lenses. (I haven't tried them.) Plus, there is a much wider selection of lenses for DSLRs than there is for Leica. So you can't even compare a Leica 80-200AF 2.8 stabilized lens with the Nikon and Canon offerings. Leica's Ms alone would cover the photo needs of some, but not most pro photographers. Keep in mind that good photographs have been made with all kinds of gear.

 

This is a quote from Bruce Dale:

------------------------------------------------------

Over the years my equipment has gotten better. When I signed on with the Geographic, I was told I could have anything within reason and one thing not within reason. I was using Leica cameras at the Toledo Blade newspaper where I had been working and wanted to continue with them. Bud Wisherd, who was in charge of the equipment at that time, gave me a Nikon F which he suggested I try. I took it and used it primarily for close-ups and extra long lens shots. Eventually I had two systems. Nikons got better. I vividly recall a row of engineers from Nikon sitting and taking notes about what we liked and didn't like about their cameras. We'd make a comment such as "the rewind lever is too sharp and cuts our finger." A year later, the new model came out with a broader rewind lever with the end covered with plastic. The engineers would be back and would ask, "Here is our new camera, how you like it?" And year after year, the cameras would improve. Nikon's competitors brought their new models too but with the attitude, "Here is our new camera, you will like it."

 

Eventually, I switched to Nikon and use them for virtually all my work.

 

http://www.brucedale.com/equipment/