No DSLR solution below S2 line

[rosuna]

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1- R to Pana adapter to be used on the next Panasonic EVIL

2- R mount on this EVIL plus a red dot eventually

 

LCT, I don't believe that will be the case. The crop factor is too large. That is not a "solution" at all. And Leica doesn't like the micro 4/3. I think Panasonic is not interested at this moment in something different, say, larger (I may be wrong).

[mooky]

We can pick our poison - in this case, the 'MegaPixel' video where the interviewer doesn't ask about an R solution, or Andreas question (below) where he does......

 

Here, this is from Andreas' post #332 on page 17 in the Customer Forum under 'Photokina, your questions to Leica'. This is part of the Q&A session that occurred on Sept. 25. I think it's clear enough.

 

Andreas - We talked about the R-solution (it was the first topic as I know about the importance).

Stefan Daniel said "We are working on a solution" - so I hope I'm able to answer your questions with this.

 

The Leica management didn't say anything regarding time lines, Mr. Schopf several times pointed out that quality and keeping promises they give is most important for Leica."

 

As much as I'm dissatisfied with Leica and the delayed R solution - they are still saying they are working on a solution. I think it will be a hybrid M/Mount camera with an R adapter, and it may have AF lenses and some type of electric finder. Then everyone is happy - R lens owners, M lens owners who want a more updated/modern M camera and legacy M lens users, and they keep making the 'traditional M'. The AF issue was mentioned in the 1/2009 LFI as being essential - but I'm not hanging my hat on that one! Once the M9 sales level off, it seems logical they'll have to have a marketable FF alternative (not S2) that keeps sales moving up...IMO.

[andybarton]

Who was the interviewer in the video? (I haven't had a chance to see it yet)

[lct]

LCT, I don't believe that will be the case. The crop factor is too large. That is not a "solution" at all. And Leica doesn't like the micro 4/3. I think Panasonic is not interested at this moment in something different, say, larger (I may be wrong).

Both of us might be wrong of course but i don't see Samsung & Sony staying alone in the APS wagon very long. So the R solution could be either an R to (APS) Pana or PanaLeica adapter, or an R mount on the next APS Pana or PanaLeica but i don't believe really in that.

[wildlightphoto]

 

Find a niche

Exploit it

Fill it

Repeat

 

Exactly! The S2, M9 and and X1 easily meet this standard. The R system's distinctive place in the market was always more subtle.

 

What's the big deal? So Leica can't make (or doesn't want to) a DSLR solution and appears to be leaving R glass users hanging in the wind. With a perfectly acceptable solution for most of those users - a Nikon or a Canon full frame with appropriate adapters

 

For many of us this is far from a perfectly acceptable solution.

 

I also believe the mirrorless concept will take over - eat away - from the DSLR market, but it will be really fast. Olympus, Panasonic and Samsung are abandoning the reflex systems... I think the central problem regarding any R solution is not a new "system" but a 24x36 CMOS based technology developed by Leica or a partner.

 

I agree completely. The SLR as we have known it is doomed.

 

.... I would suggest that the 28 Elmarit, 50 Summicron, 80 Summilux, 90 Summicron ASPH and anything longer than 135 (obviously) are as near as good as their M equivalents (if there is one) as to make no difference. The 60 and 100 Macro-Elmarits are outstanding lenses, especially when you consider their age.

 

I'd also suggest that the optical performance of any of the Leica APO lenses is at least as good as, if not clearly superior to, the best similar focal length/aperture lenses from other makers.

[Nicoleica]

Both of us might be wrong of course but i don't see Samsung & Sony staying alone in the APS wagon very long. So the R solution could be either an R to (APS) Pana or PanaLeica adapter, or an R mount on the next APS Pana or PanaLeica but i don't believe really in that.

 

Don't forget that Nikon are hinting very strongly about their soon-to-be-announced new system. Perhaps this will be the answer?

[dhsimmonds]

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At the moment Sony are leading the technology front with their version of Canon's Pelix transparent mirror solution. This together with their new Exmoor sensor if continued into their A700 (APS-C) and A900 (FF) will take some beating for sometime to come. Add their Zeiss lenses and Sony(Minolta) G lenses and Sony are suddenly a force to be reckoned with.

 

If Leica management had any "intelligence" on Sony's patent applications (highly probable) I can begin to see why the decision was made to 'can' the R line and not produce the much vaunted and promised R10.

 

Leica will have known the quality of Minolta's camera creativity as the early R line lenses owed much to Minolta, which when combined with Sony's electronic genius in the digital photographic age is then a very formidable force indeed.

 

Just my two ha'pence worth!

[lct]

Sony helping Leica to compete vs Zeiss? Hard to believe IMO.

[SteveYork]

Not to serve the still growing Full frame DSLR market will be a big strategic mistake in the future. That will be expensive for Leica.

 

There's too much competition from C and N. That's not to say the S2 was a good idea.

[Nicoleica]

Leica will have known the quality of Minolta's camera creativity as the early R line lenses owed much to Minolta, which when combined with Sony's electronic genius in the digital photographic age is then a very formidable force indeed.

 

Not to mention the 'R' camera line prior to the R8.

[dhsimmonds]

Sony helping Leica to compete vs Zeiss? Hard to believe IMO.

 

I don't believe that was either mentioned or meant in my post!! Quite the opposite I would say, as I agree with you totally. I was just indicating that if Leica had their ear to the ground whilst Sony were presenting their worldwide patents...it is not surprising that they decided to pull out of the DSLR market.

[lct]

Ah yes i did not get it, sorry.

[paulmoore]

okay I get it, and can live with it.. no solution for R..

I am adapting them to a hacked gh1 and shooting video with them and will continue to use on the dmr..better than paperweights and still beautiful glass..maybe in a year or two they will get around to having an evil camera to use them on.. but by then, I hope to have the s2 so I can transition and put them aside. I don't know if leica realized how many existing R users would love to move up but even we feel the ceiling on the s2 is out of reach.. and with limited offerings.. IF and that is a big if, Leica had s2 lenses that matched the range of my R lenses it would cost me 80,000 usd to get a "system" using today's leica numbers. I really hope that Leica HQ pays top money for photographers, just as they demand top money for their work.

It is the downward pressure that photographers have felt the past 8 years that keeps a lot of veterans photographers from placing orders.. While the cost of their glass and labor has undoubtedly gone up, the cost of photographs in the commercial market has gone down with their professional customers are getting poorer and poorer. A no win for either side.

[jgmb]

1. The M camera will evolve incorporating a CMOS sensor and live view capabilities. It is a matter of time, even if Leica is not pursuing it actively at this moment (and I assume they are).

 

2. The M system plus R adapter will be the "R solution".

 

3. The points 1 and 2 are compatible with a classic line of M cameras, with optical viewfinder and rangefinder (and CMOS and Livew View) and a different line with some kind of electronic viewfinder (sharing the M mount).

 

[snip]

 

Leica already has a mirrorless platform, the M system. They don't need another one, or another reflex system (they have the S). I agree with Mr. Daniel: Leica has a perfect collection of systems (M, S, X) for further developments, evolution and competition. They don't need to complicate the portfolio adding new mounts, etc. They just need improvements and development of those already existing lines. They have time because Leica don't need a revolution. Those changes can be implemented step by step, when the technologies are mature. I think the central problem regarding any R solution is not a new "system" but a 24x36 CMOS based technology developed by Leica or a partner.

 

 

Regarding the entire "R solution" debate, I think Rosuna posits a brilliant strategy to resolving this dilemma. As Stefan Daniel has already pointed out, the M9 is a "mirrorless camera". Why NOT evolve the M System into two branches: the traditional optical M rangefinder line and a new EVIL M line? There would be no need to build a whole new system from scratch:

 

1) Retain the beautiful M9 body as it is, but substitute a FF CMOS sensor with LiveView. Add a HD LCD with resolution equal to the iPhone Retina Display.

 

2) Replace the rangefinder with a state-of-the-art built-in EVF with the highest resolution available, (currently at 1.5 million dots, soon to be higher) to provide accurate digital framing, histogram and focus confirmation. No more need for cumbersome external hot shoe viewfinders for wide-angle lenses, nor multiple framelines cluttering the view.

 

3) M mount with an adaptor for R lenses. With AF on the sensor (as some have speculated) both M and R lenses could benefit while retaining manual focus with digital confirmation. Or, in the future, Leica could conceivably create a new line of compact autofocus lenses for this camera with M quality.

 

Such a 'bridge" camera would modernize the M system and attract new customers who are looking for a smaller lighter FF camera than the Canikon dSLRs, as well as those who appreciate the minimalist elegance of the M but dislike manual focus or rangefinders.

 

For those who do love rangefinders and optical viewfinders and don't care about AF or video, Leica could keep the current M9 just like they continue to sell the M7 and MP cameras. All bases would be covered and Leica could fill the hole in their product line between the M9 and the X. Maybe call it the MX?

[mooky]

I agree that a 'bridge camera' makes the most sense. But I would like Leica to start with a clean sheet of paper this time. If there is any restriction placed on the success, usability or features of the 'new' design by sticking with the M9 footprint or profile then Leica shouldn't be afraid to change.....and as has been said, they can still produce the classic M.

 

As long as it's close in size I'm sure most would embrace it - and I think AF is a must in today's market. People (the market) just expect it like they expected AE years ago, and as long long as it can also use legacy glass, why not? Please Leica, make the finder eyepiece as nice as the S2, and don't forget the weather seals. I could care less what sensor they use, as long as it works and is reliable in the field. Oh, and make it so it's a REAL system camera with real close-up lenses, etc., plus 5 frames per second (no video) for when I want and need it. Oh, put a contour on the body that I can really get a grip on (with gloves too, make the controls bigger that I can use with gloves....there, that's a start.

 

There is isn't a solution for R glass other than an adapter and they won't be building a camera around the need for just an R solution. I don't agree at all with the S2 over/instead of the R, they've alienated too many customers with that decision, myself included, and they dumped a huge amount of cash for the S2 to do so. Whatever you do, don't screw it up - set new standards - don't keep sitting on old ones.

[wildlightphoto]

3) M mount with an adaptor for R lenses.

 

More likely and ultimately more versatile is a new mount with a short mount register that can use adapters for either M or R lenses. One of the problems with the existing M mount is the small diameter which blocks light in the corners when used with long-focus lenses such as the f/6.8 Telyts. A new mount with a wider diameter and shorter register would allow both M and R (and other) lenses to be used via adapters, and would likely be designed for a new AF line of lenses.

[giordano]

Why NOT evolve the M System into two branches: the traditional optical M rangefinder line and a new EVIL M line? There would be no need to build a whole new system from scratch:

 

Yes, but:

 

1 & 2) The M body was designed around a 35mm film transport mechanism, a cloth focal plane shutter and an optical viewfinder that could comfortably display a 50mm frame at about 0.9x magnification or a 35mm frame at 0.72x. In the camera you propose, none of these factors exists. Retaining the M3 or M9 form factor would be a retro affectation, a total rejection of "form follows function".

 

3) On the experience of the RD1, M8, and M9 and we can be sure that a sensor optimised for M lenses won't be at its best with R lenses and vice versa. This suggests that an M-mount camera with a fancy R adapter may involve more compromises in image quality than Leica would accept in the official R-solution.

 

3 again) There isn't room in the M form factor for sensor-shifting AF (though that's beside the point if you accept that the new form should follow the new functions. In addition, however, sensor-shifting AF doesn't partner well with lenses that have floating elements (and to some extent also with internal focus and zoom lenses).

Such a 'bridge" camera would modernize the M system and attract new customers who are looking for a smaller lighter FF camera than the Canikon dSLRs, as well as those who appreciate the minimalist elegance of the M but dislike manual focus or rangefinders.

I hope so, but fear that most people in those markets would want full-blown AF rather than the partial solution offered by moving the sensor backwards and forwards. Remember, if you're using (say) a 50mm Summilux ASPH anywhere near wide open and you switch from a subject at infinity to a subject at 1m, you need to set the focusing ring to approximately 1m so the floating elements are in the right place and then press the button to let the AF do its thing. Back off a meter and you need to adjust the focusing ring again. (Either that or get less performance than the lens is capable of - which rather spoils the point of spending all that much money in the first place:o.)

[mooky]

Doug's idea as to a larger than M mount diameter makes sense. Too, I don't think a moving sensor will see the light of day for the already mentioned reasons plus the added tech complexity.

 

Given all the good, logical reasoning and without being 'tech' experts, I can't see Leica not starting with a clean sheet of paper - as to the finder, some Nikon patent drawings shows what appears to be a prism mirror looking down at a screen/sensor/panel, like a hybrid DSLR finder. But who knows, it may just be a 'smoke-screen' to throw off other tech developments. But more than likely, there will be a few different EV and EV-hybrid 'finders' coming and it should be interesting to see who comes up with the simplest, most viewable system. Leica has an excellent opportunity, as long as having to weave an R solution into it doesn't make it harder!

[wildlightphoto]

... sensor-shifting AF doesn't partner well with lenses that have floating elements (and to some extent also with internal focus and zoom lenses).

 

+1

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[harrisfoto]

The DMR with R lenses produces fantastic results. Most of the trigger happy crowd simply were not ready for the quality the combination could produce. Leica must have recognized this, and realized that they only market for this quality was the pro studio market. So they redesigned the DSLR to compete in the pro market.

The M8 and M9, which should have come out before the DMR, will fulfill the quality demands of most thoughtful photographers.

An R "solution" would just compete with new M digital market.

I can't afford to keep upgrading both systems every 2 to 3 years, and most likely Leica understands that it is easier to move R users to digital M's then to compete with itself.

I have a large number of R lenses, but even so, my preference is for Leica to continue M digital and M lens development.