Will X1 Values Plummet When Leica Releases New EVIL Camera?

[jsrockit]

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Fuji isn't making this camera yet, there are at least two version at the photofair thingie, the camera is due to launch in 6 months from now .... as I mentioned before; on paper I could make my auntie Marge look very interesting, ... all until you meet her in person!!!

 

Fine... but I was excited about the X1 this time last year, was excited when it shipped to me in march, and am still excited about the X1 today.

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[prk60091]

Has it occurred to everyone here that the market may be so extremely niche that we are a very small minority that want extreme good IQ in a tiny package.

 

The rest will either go for dslr, or p&s, the middle ground is represented by mft or nex.

 

Something like the X1 is too "serious" a compact camera, and too expensive for most to swallow.

 

herein may be the reason why Canon/Nikon has absolutely no interest in this market. Too niche for their mass market strategy.

 

And the X1 isnt versatile enough for studio/ professional work either, so that segment isnt covered either.

 

whats left is us??

 

 

However, I would bet that nikon and canon are working on prototypes and if the fuji takes off, we will see nikon and canon 'versions' for Xmas 2011

[JanCderidder]

There will be better camera's produced... all of the time, better as in specs that is, whether you will notice the difference on a screen or print thats thats the question. Definitely some might look nicer and shinier, have better specs than the camera you own, is this a reason for ditching and buying? ... I don't think so.

 

I feel comfortable with my X1, I know what it can-, and can't do ... I take images accordingly. Switching to the X100 is just a matter of money, will it improve my photography ... not one single bit.

 

Look at some of the guys that have the M9 and a multitude of lenses, back-up bodies etc. etc. look at their images posted on this very forum and look carefully and ask yourself; " this guy is shooting with 20K worth of gear, are the images better, are they any good at all?" and in 90% of the cases you be forced to shake your head and say "no, actually could of all been taken with an LX2 or a 2001 canon.... if your happy with the thing you have, be happy with it, whatever it is ... and who buys a camera to actually use as is and thinks about the value depreciation? ... only the gearheads, the people that moan and groan about the looks of any newly introduced camera, swear to buy one before even having seen it in real life ... these are the people that us amateur photogs don't even want to take notice of ... the more money than brains guys and sure there are hundreds of these people on this forum as I speak/write... follow them and their thoughts and you will totally be on the wrong path to enjoyable photography. And if you do want to spend/waste your money on shiny little contraptions, think twice and perhaps donate to a charitable institution of your choice, go out and take some images....

[phancj]

However, I would bet that nikon and canon are working on prototypes and if the fuji takes off, we will see nikon and canon 'versions' for Xmas 2011

 

I do not think so.

 

Reasoning is mft has presumably "taken off", but not in a way that nikon/canon consider worthwhile or they would have done so long ago.

 

The volume of mft compared to dslr/P&S sales probably there is vast disparity.

 

Even if the Fuji "takes off" in fuji terms, it may be that nikon/canon considers the volume mediocre and may not launch similar lines.

 

My contention is that if the mft format is any good, canon/nikon would have jumped on it in a heartbeat.

 

Meanwhile, leica and fuji will happily frolic in the crevices left by the giants, and be happy coz the sales volume is substantial judged against the size of the companies.

 

Thats my analysis, but one thing for sure, if the mft/fuji/X1 really takes off in canon/nikon terms, they WILL be on it in a big way. Right now, having seen the lacklustre photokina, I think it aint happening.

 

We are stuck with X1 vs fuji vs mft vs nex for a loooonnnnggg while!

[jsrockit]

There will be better camera's produced... all of the time, better as in specs that is, whether you will notice the difference on a screen or print thats thats the question. Definitely some might look nicer and shinier, have better specs than the camera you own, is this a reason for ditching and buying? ... I don't think so.

 

What is wrong with having both an X1 and the X100? The bottom line is that many people who like Leicas (or any other rangefinder) and liked the AF electronic rangefinder cameras of the 90s have been waiting for this camera.

 

I feel comfortable with my X1, I know what it can-, and can't do ... I take images accordingly. Switching to the X100 is just a matter of money, will it improve my photography ... not one single bit.

...

 

Yes, it certainly could improve your photography. One wouldn't know without trying it. I can say that I make better photos with RF cameras than with SLRs. It shouldn't be the case, but it is because one is a joy to use and one isn't for me.

[stunsworth]

I do not think so.

 

Reasoning is mft has presumably "taken off", but not in a way that nikon/canon consider worthwhile or they would have done so long ago.

 

They've been too busy happily selling people p&s cameras with increasingly high pixel densities. Now that the market is nearly saturated (a guess on my part) they have to look at offering something new to entice people to replace their cameras. So they'll market cameras with larger sensors as being of 'even' higher quality - no doubt with an ad showing how much better the new cameras perform compared to the old ones.

 

The lower end of market will switch to using mobile phone cameras, it's already easy to get a good photograph with an iPhone 4 and cheaper choices will offer similar performance. The middle market will stick with p&s, and the top end will switch to p&s cameras with larger sensors - I would guess with largely fixed lenses.

 

Sigma dipped their toes into this water, then Olympus and Panasonic, now Sony and Fuji. I'd expect Nikon and Canon to join the club in the next 12 months.

 

All IMHO of course.

[trademark13]

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Hi All!

 

I'm new to this forum AND the world of Leica. I happen to own a Sony NEX 5 and see that it has crept into this thread, so I thought I might offer a real world opinion from someone who is just starting down the path of amateur photography.

 

The NEX is a great little travel camera for those who use the auto mode. It's small, and takes very nice pictures given the quality of the kit lens. However, its menu and operation is the worst I have ever experienced. For someone like myself who are just learning the basics of photography it is absolutely horrible.

 

I recently took a family vacation and brought along the NEX and a Digilux 2 (my "learning" camera). While I will admit that I got, what I consider to be, some very nice shots with the Sony, it is simply painful to use in anything but auto mode.

 

Now that I've returned home, I've concluded that, in spite of the sensor size (which is why I purchased it in the first place), I will never be happy with the operation of the camera. It should be up for sale shortly, barely 3 weeks after I purchased it. At this point, my plans are to use the money towards either an E-P2 or <drool> a Leica X1. I'm really interested in the IQ of the Leica, but have some concerns on whether or not I can do without any sort of zoom lens and, of course, there is that little price difference to contend with. (Suggestions/Pros and Cons would be most welcomed.)

[Ozkar]

It's too bad you haven't learned to read yet. The title to this thread was posed as a question about a rumored Leica EVIL camera and not as a statement. We now know that Leica has no EVIL camera announcement for Photokina so the question relative to the rumor is moot.

 

When I post comments taken from other Leica owners or reviewers about the X1 they are their views and statements so take up your beef with them. This is after all a gear forum. You are entitled to think whatever you like about a piece of gear and so am I. Sony has its flaws in the lenses and Leica in the electronics which one is more critical is open to debate. I grew up with traditional cameras, range finders and SLRs so that colors my perception about what makes a good camera ergonomically. Someone that grew up with the PASM P&S may have a completely different view and look upon a camera like the Fuji X100 as archaic.

 

In a static situation the X1 can take excellent quality photos. In very skilled hands it can take excellent quality photos in a dynamic environment within limits. However, a tool with greater ability makes the skill set needed to accomplish the task easier. A good mechanic can work miracles with a less than ideal tool set but given the right tool set will do a superior job with greater ease.

 

I can read perfectly well. Your sensationalist title to this thread is pure troll bait. You are well aware that all digital cameras depreciate over time and with every release of a (potentially) competing model. The red dot on the X1 will not protect it from this fate. Your heading suggests some sort of hidden agenda. Time and time again I see you spread this same old nonsense across the various forums. Take your response to the thread "I think I'm in love" in the DPR Leica Forum regarding the Fuji X100:

 

"I predict X1 sales will start to decline rapidly. The closer this camera gets to reality the greater the impact on X1 sales. Watch used prices drop very fast, especially if it turns out to have high performance in AF and JPGs with high DR."

 

This digression held little, if any, relevance to the thread. And you seemed to be the only person expressing this grave concern for the X1.

 

So, I ask, what is the real point you are trying to make?

[ravinj]

At this point, my plans are to use the money towards either an E-P2 or <drool> a Leica X1. I'm really interested in the IQ of the Leica, but have some concerns on whether or not I can do without any sort of zoom lens and, of course, there is that little price difference to contend with. (Suggestions/Pros and Cons would be most welcomed.)

 

Apart from lack of zoom lens consider that Leica X1 is not meant for machine-gun shooting style. X1 does not have video and it does not have art filters. If highest IQ in the smallest package is the main criteria then X1 has no competition at this time. I have used X1 as my primary and the only vacation camera without missing any photo ops. That's just me. There is a small minority that can never seem to take a photo with the X1.

 

I have not used E-P2. I have used E-PL1 and its menu system is a pain to navigate. Picture quality of E-PL1 is reasonably good, but X1 is ahead of it in IQ and the difference is very obvious to me at least. At ISO 400 X1 is already way ahead of E-PL1.

 

X1's simplicity, small size, light weight and quiet shutter will allow you to capture shots in many situations that you simply cannot with E-P2, GF-1 and others. Simplicity also results in ability to shoot faster. This is the point that many others forget when they keep harping about AF speed.

 

E-PL1's output did not make my jaw drop. It was merely good. And this is a camera with a very good JPG engine. X1's output did make my jaw drop. Your jaws may behave differently. So long as you don't compare X1's output with E-P2 or E-PL1 you will be happy in case you go the E-XX route. Once you do a comparison, it will be a different story.

[phancj]

Apart from lack of zoom lens consider that Leica X1 is not meant for machine-gun shooting style. X1 does not have video and it does not have art filters. If highest IQ in the smallest package is the main criteria then X1 has no competition at this time. I have used X1 as my primary and the only vacation camera without missing any photo ops. That's just me. There is a small minority that can never seem to take a photo with the X1.

 

I have not used E-P2. I have used E-PL1 and its menu system is a pain to navigate. Picture quality of E-PL1 is reasonably good, but X1 is ahead of it in IQ and the difference is very obvious to me at least. At ISO 400 X1 is already way ahead of E-PL1.

 

X1's simplicity, small size, light weight and quiet shutter will allow you to capture shots in many situations that you simply cannot with E-P2, GF-1 and others. Simplicity also results in ability to shoot faster. This is the point that many others forget when they keep harping about AF speed.

 

E-PL1's output did not make my jaw drop. It was merely good. And this is a camera with a very good JPG engine. X1's output did make my jaw drop. Your jaws may behave differently. So long as you don't compare X1's output with E-P2 or E-PL1 you will be happy in case you go the E-XX route. Once you do a comparison, it will be a different story.

 

Yup, and my jaws do not drop easily, but they did when I saw the first few photos I shot.

[RichardM8]

Picture quality of E-PL1 is reasonably good, but X1 is ahead of it in IQ and the difference is very obvious to me at least. At ISO 400 X1 is already way ahead of E-PL1.

 

A friend of mine had an EP2 to accompany his D700. Even at base ISO the X1 is already clearly better than the Oly. He ended up selling it.

[BB W]

I had an E-P2, then an E-PL1 with several lenses along with the EVF. I had been a very happy camper, especially with the 9-18mm and then I read about the X1...then I saw photos with the X1, then I downloaded some RAW files with the X1 and then I bought the X1.

 

Just sold my PEN gear within this past week. Will I have buyer's remorse? Time will tell, but I don't think so. Although I am still learning my way around the X1, she is a real beauty with great depth. I sold my PEN gear because I wasn't using it - which does not mean that someone else might not want both...but I needed to raise some cash to offset my X1 purchase to assuage some self inflicted guilt and add to the bank account, too.

 

 

Am I interested in the new to come Fuji X100, yes but March is a ways off when we'll really see what it's all about.

[ChiILX1]

I am in the market but it seems that one has to buy several to make up one........

 

*The Sigma DP1s superb for landscapes at low iso as long as you can control the greens. Also fantastic bnw conversions

 

*X1 by far the best sensor/lens combination

 

*Olympus EP-2 the best looking jpegs out of any of the small cameras

 

* Ricoh GXR the 50mm was a disappointment dunno about the 28mm, files a bit stodgy

 

* GF1 the fastest out of the bunch crappy jpegs

 

* Sony nex would wait until series 2. a bit dense in colour no life in the images at present

 

* According to a mate the Fuji will dance .............. but one could be disappointed with the colour rendition it may be a acquired taste

 

 

Take a pick.....

 

 

......... Me well dunno on a extended trip say the Asia... a DP1S, a X1 and a pany with a 20mm and a small contax or similiar ......... probably the X1 would be replaced with the Fuji as it will be pretty robust, but need to see the colour

 

Despite the need for sreveral small cameras a lot more fun than a DSLR and a lot more versatility than a rangefinder ( a personal preference)

 

This is not only a great summary but has been confirmed by the sample images. Color can be improved by the RAW processing developments but clarity and contrast are in the lens.

[phancj]

Personal differences aside I agree wit stnami's succint summary.

 

CJ

[Guest X1s]

I'd imagine Leica is a lot smarter than that. Do you honestly think they'd be naive enough to introduce a new model just a year later that could cannibalize the X1? Come now , there's plenty of room, price wise, to differentiate a new model from the X1 and the M9.

 

Yes I do think Leica was naive, I think Leica tried, but failed with the price point of the X1. If they are smart they will quickly move forward and count there losses and learn from they're mistakes with the issues surrounding the X, and get a new and (practical) model out as soon as possible.

 

Pss..... don't expect a very noticeable increase in (auto focus speed and (reliability) in the X1's up coming FW update, as it is a hardware issue more than a software fix. Some people just don't get it.

[ChiILX1]

Pss..... don't expect a very noticeable increase in (auto focus speed and (reliability) in the X1's up coming FW update, as it is a hardware issue more than a software fix. Some people just don't get it.

 

The idea that it is a hardware issue was settled a long time ago- it's not. Originally the argument for slow AF was that it was the refresh rate of the sensor. The X1 has the same sensor as the D300s, so it's not hardware related (the D300s has a great AF speed).

[timd.]

true, the d300s is fast - being a dslr it works with phase detection af (which does not take use of the image sensor) instead of contrast af. that's what makes it faster.

 

-> wiki: autofocus

 

after all, there's some kind of hardware issue - nevertheless a new firmware might speed up the af a bit.

[Guest X1s]

The idea that it is a hardware issue was settled a long time ago- it's not. Originally the argument for slow AF was that it was the refresh rate of the sensor. The X1 has the same sensor as the D300s, so it's not hardware related (the D300s has a great AF speed).

 

So are you saying that the Fw update will put the X1's auto focus speed as that of the D300 auto focuses speed because there sensors are the exact same? there are so many variables and differences between the D300 and X1, there is no possible way that the X1 will ever achieve the auto focus speed of the D300, what are you smoking man. Give it up, move forward and except the thing Leica can't change, and hope for a future model with the hardware and limitation correction in a X2??

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[ChiILX1]

So are you saying that the Fw update will put the X1's auto focus speed as that of the D300 auto focuses speed because there sensors are the exact same? there are so many variables and differences between the D300 and X1, there is no possible way that the X1 will ever achieve the auto focus speed of the D300, what are you smoking man. Give it up, move forward and except the thing Leica can't change, and hope for a future model with the hardware and limitation correction in a X2??

 

Who is this guy, bursting onto the scene claiming to have the amazing ability of essentializing this entire forums' history of postings into the conclusion that all of us, except for apparently me and a "minority" of fanboys, consider it a "CHRONIC FAILURE" and apparently just continue to hang around?

[phancj]

Yes, it is true the difference in AF system will mean the X1 will never be as fast as a DSLR like the D300 but neither will mft, dp2s, x100, etc,etc,etc. The draw is portability.

 

As for X1s' concern on the dismal and bleak future for the X1, I regret to inform that the X1 has been hot and selling out most of the time. leica has a happy problem for the M9 and the X1 with supply being outstripped by demand. Of course the actual number of units produced is comparatively small but Leica is still doing well financially just look at their last balance sheet. In fact, it has been reported by Leica that sales of X1 has well exceeded their initial expectations, boding well for the future of the X line.

 

Funny how anyone can purport that the X1 has failed when it is selling so well even at its price of $2K for a compact. Anyone who thinks there is something fatally wrong with the X1 has his head in the mud coz the primary reason for a camera is to take good photos. IMO leica deserves applause for creating such a gem, not that it cannot be improved upon in future models. Just look at the M8 to M9 transition.

 

X1s, you never fail to crack me up here, the constant reference to weed/getting high must be a reflection of what you are doing.