Improve sharpness with burst shooting?

[Nei1]

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Contrary to popular belief photography is not for impressing others but is an enjoyable obsession that can ,IF DONE HONESTLY,open doors and windows in our necessarily corrupted minds that, if not for this search for a kind of visual nirvana, would remain closed forever.It is a journey that can be done in a myriad of ways but they all involve the direct ,full contact,dirty,bloody,full contact with LIFE........burst mode doesnt scratch the surface........

You maybe need to forgive us our obsession with the leica M,you see its the only camera that doesnt put anything in our way,theres nothing that distracts you,its simply a device that draws you into life ,that ultimatly explores your own courage.

 

Hooligan.Im sure at this moment your laughing your head off,quite reasonable in many ways:) so forgive me if I try an an old mans trick......yes .......an analogy.

 

 

Two men get to the top of a mountain,one climbs up through wind and snow,suffers all the danger and excitment of the climb over several days,......the other flies in a helicopter straight to the top in a matter of minutes.

 

The important thing is "the journey" (said in Bruce Lee accent)

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[phancj]

And a point to add, Andy, some may consider AF and auto exposure, etc,etc also decadence and one should do everything manually, coz that implies real skill.

 

I love AF, and do not think that implies I am technically and skill deficient, it may be that given my poorer eyesight I think AF is practical and allows me to enjoy photography more.

 

If you have some misgivings about the burst mode, then likewise you should feel auto exposure, Autofocus, digital PP, just about everything else will imply lack of proper technique. That makes no sense to me.

 

the only thing that makes sense from your side of the fence is the focus on proper technique, which I totally agree, but my contention is burst technique used properly does not imply a lack of skill at all.

[giordano]

So, where's the skill in shooting 25 frames per second? Why not make it 50 or 100?

 

Andy, please don't go down that road. It's just the same as saying in the 1870s "where's the skill in using a dry plate rather than preparing your own collodion ones?", or in the 1930s "where's the skill in using an exposure meter?" It's like complaining about your car having a thermostat or synchromesh.

 

What all these innovations do is make redundant various sub-skills that used to be essential - mixing emulsions, double-declutching - and let one concentrate on the core skills: making pictures, driving well.

 

Setting aside questions such as processing power and storage capacity, I would love to have a camera that captures 100 Leica-quality images per second, starting a fraction of a second before I press the button and continuing until I release it. With a Leica and some skill, one has a reasonable chance of getting a "decisive moment" shot - within I guess about 100 milliseconds. With the camera I want, I'd be able to pin it down to within 10 milliseconds.

 

In this picture, the motorcyclist was doing about 30 mph (say 13 m/sec) and the cyclist much less. Say a closing speed of 18 m/sec, 18mm per millisecond. I didn't want the two figures to overlap so much. Say 560mm less overlap so most of the motorbike front wheel was visible - so I was about 30 milliseconds - less than 1/30th - late pressing the button.

 

 

 

If the M6 had captured 20 or 30 frames as they passed, I could have chosen the decisive one, rather than get a very near miss. But I'd still have to have seen the opportunity, got into position, focused, framed, and all the rest of it. That's enough skill for me.

[phancj]

Contrary to popular belief photography is not for impressing others but is an enjoyable obsession that can ,IF DONE HONESTLY,open doors and windows in our necessarily corrupted minds that, if not for this search for a kind of visual nirvana, would remain closed forever.It is a journey that can be done in a myriad of ways but they all involve the direct ,full contact,dirty,bloody,full contact with LIFE........burst mode doesnt scratch the surface........

You maybe need to forgive us our obsession with the leica M,you see its the only camera that doesnt put anything in our way,theres nothing that distracts you,its simply a device that draws you into life ,that ultimatly explores your own courage.

 

Hooligan.Im sure at this moment your laughing your head off,quite reasonable in many ways:) so forgive me if I try an an old mans trick......yes .......an analogy.

 

 

Two men get to the top of a mountain,one climbs up through wind and snow,suffers all the danger and excitment of the climb over several days,......the other flies in a helicopter straight to the top in a matter of minutes.

 

The important thing is "the journey" (said in Bruce Lee accent)

 

Coming to your analogy my contention is I enjoy the climb up the mountain instead of the helicopter but I may choose to wear state-of-the-art shoes, weather resistant clothing, that way I still enjoy the process without being masochistic. I do not go up the mountain wearing insufficient clothing and 19th century shoes because that was how the great mountaineers used to do in the good old day??!! Come on!

 

But I agree the joy is in the journey. Similarly burst shooting DOES NOT in any way negate any enjoyment of the process, but in fact is empowering in certain needy circumstances.

[bill]

Andy, you might as well close the thread, nothing more can be learned from further discussion.

 

I venture to suggest that subsequent posts have proven otherwise...

 

Firstly, thank you to those who have been kind about my images - they were just to illustrate my point, but it's always nice to be appreciated.

 

Secondly, thanks to those who have taken this discussion back into the realms of good sense, and have taken the time to explore and state their position in terms not just of what but of why.

 

Now, let me pick up on some specific points:

 

I have a question though. That relates directly to thevsubject of this forum, the X1. Your shots were not X1 but other equipment, like M's. I use an M9 and an X1. The M9, like other M's I have owned, is well suited to composing, focusing and waiting for the decisive moment. I have so far been quite frustrated with the X1 in similar photo situations. Maybe it is me but I find the autofocus very slow and the shutter lag unsuited to moving objects because the judgment about when to trip the shutter is distorted by the autofocus/shutter lag and I am always therefore too late. I can therefore well understand how someone who has an X1 could try to compensate for what i consider a camera deficiency by shooting in rapid succession. Hence, the proper technique for an M may not work on an X1. If someone has figured out a technique for minimizing the lag problems, I'd to to be educated. For now, I don't even think about the X1 when trying street photos or other work that requires that sense of timing. I can do it on an M but the X1 is a different animal.

 

Alan, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, the key is to master your equipment, and to an extent that was why I chose to show images from four different cameras above. Each is very different in handling and capability, but also in shutter lag. In each case I nailed the moment by anticipating and compensating for the camera's performance. Thus with the SLRs the moment of pressing the button has to be slightly earlier than that for, for example, the M6. I "take up the slack" in my anticipation, allowing for the response time of the camera and varying accordingly. This is easier to do than to explain, I admit, and requires both familiarity and practice with any particular camera. The "slowest" camera I own at present is my LC-1 and with that I have to anticipate "strongly". I suspect that I would use the same order of magnitude of anticipation with the X-1. I would also set the camera, as I do with the LC-1, to minimise causes for lag, using manual white balance, exposure, ISO and focus in order to reduce substantially the time that the camera will spend counting it's fingers and toes before taking the shot.

 

However, I disagree totally on your concept of "decisive moment" meaning you take one shot that says it all and if you failed to do it, then its gone forever? I would employ the best techniques which include stance, method of pressing trigger, perfect settings on camera and in that window of opportunity fire off a burst and I might capture maybe the moment when the hat is even closer to the head, or in a nicer position, etc,etc do you see my point? Since it is a decisive moment we must make the best of it and if that includes using burst mode I would do it. Why let our fixation on archaic principles limit our potential? I do not believe that past masters would deliberately cripple themselves in the face of modern technology. I am hoping that buffers get larger, and burst shots get more intense so maybe I can get 20 shots in a second. That would be great! After all, that decisive moment once gone is gone forever??!!

 

Let me explore this one with an analogy.

 

In the early days of the First World War, the challenge for aviators was to fire at each other without shooting themselves down. If they fired through the airscrew, they could hit the blades and do just that. The first technological solution was the "deflector gear" - this reduced the risk of hitting the blades, but was not perfect, meaning that the blades themselves had to be sheathed in steel, thus minimising damage but impacting their performance. The advancement was the "interrupter gear" which enabled the bullets to pass harmlessly between the airscrew blades thus shooting down the target not the source.

 

Simples.

 

The thing is, a moment is singular. It may have duration, progression, but it has a beginning, a middle and an end, regardless of whether that is an hour or a nanosecond. In my approach, I "respect" the moment, by plucking it from the stream of time. In your approach you scoop up a handful of moments and select the "best" at a later date.

 

Now, coming back to the WWI analogy, let's say we are both shooting the same event, say a man clapping his hands. Our objective is to capture his hands in the moment of impact together. I will "snipe", timing my shot. I may take several shots, but each will be singular, not plural. I will watch the action and decide when to press the shutter release. On a good day I will get my shot.

 

You will (presumably) set your camera to burst mode, and fire off a series of shots of the action. Each of your shots will be equally spaced, controlled by the camera, with the spacing determined by factors such as the maximum shutter speed available under the prevailing conditions. The only control you have is when you start and end your sequence. If your camera's sequence of shots coincides with the sequence of hand clapping, you may get your shot, but the camera does not allow for variation, for the clapper getting tired, etc. I would contend that your approach is more like the deflector gear - sometimes it works, sometimes you shoot yourself down, but you won't know until you are nose down in a French field

 

I suppose what I am saying is that I would rather rely upon my own sense of timing and luck than upon a machine and luck.

 

But I agree the joy is in the journey. Similarly burst shooting DOES NOT in any way negate any enjoyment of the process, but in fact is empowering in certain needy circumstances.

 

...and that brings us full circle. My contention is that you should use that "empowerment" as well as, not instead of, and as the exception rather than the rule.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[phancj]

Hey Bill,

 

Not sure if the deflector shield is a good example, but I find your clapping hands analogy adept.

 

So say if you have a competent camera capable of extreme high burst rate, then I contend without a doubt that I will be able to time and get the most "decisive shot" here's why:

 

1) Your method entails anticipation, waiting for the hands to come together, and based on experience, timing, reaction time, you press the shutter, and no matter what, there is shutter lag.

 

2) with burst mode, I do the same, but have the luxury of multiple shots in a split second, and with burst rates and buffers improving on newer models, it is realistic to envisage say 20 shots per second. In that moment, I fire off 20 shots, I will get shots where the palms are together, 1mm apart, 2mm apart, 3mm apart, when they are just about to come together, when they are coming apart...etc.etc. From that volume of shots, I pick one say with also the best facial expression, etc,etc you can't go wrong with that!

 

I am confident that I will get the best shot, all things being equal.

 

Sorry, I cannot for a second agree with your one shot one kill theory, too many variables are at play here besides your skill, say the person blink the moment you fire off, or the face contorts due to hay fever the last split second, etc,etc parameters where even you as a photographer extraordinaire cannot control. I would get better shots then, with lesser skill and experience, for sure.

 

Which is not to say I do not respect what you can do, and your conviction in standing by your nostalgic and romantic principle of photography. I think it means a lot to you and I totally can see your point. And it does nothing to take away your obviously higher skill set and experience which I admire.

 

But if you ask me a relatively newbie in amateur photography then I say I want your skill set in so far as settings, composition, etc but as to the question of "decisive moment" I think technology of burst rate will take care of it better, far better than human response and unpredictable and extenuating circumstances surrounding that "decisive moment".

[Nei1]

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Hey Bill,

 

Not sure if the deflector shield is a good example, but I find your clapping hands analogy adept.

 

So say if you have a competent camera capable of extreme high burst rate, then I contend without a doubt that I will be able to time and get the most "decisive shot" here's why:

 

1) Your method entails anticipation, waiting for the hands to come together, and based on experience, timing, reaction time, you press the shutter, and no matter what, there is shutter lag.

 

2) with burst mode, I do the same, but have the luxury of multiple shots in a split second, and with burst rates and buffers improving on newer models, it is realistic to envisage say 20 shots per second. In that moment, I fire off 20 shots, I will get shots where the palms are together, 1mm apart, 2mm apart, 3mm apart, when they are just about to come together, when they are coming apart...etc.etc. From that volume of shots, I pick one say with also the best facial expression, etc,etc you can't go wrong with that!

 

I am confident that I will get the best shot, all things being equal.

 

Sorry, I cannot for a second agree with your one shot one kill theory, too many variables are at play here besides your skill, say the person blink the moment you fire off, or the face contorts due to hay fever the last split second, etc,etc parameters where even you as a photographer extraordinaire cannot control. I would get better shots then, with lesser skill and experience, for sure.

 

Which is not to say I do not respect what you can do, and your conviction in standing by your nostalgic and romantic principle of photography. I think it means a lot to you and I totally can see your point. And it does nothing to take away your obviously higher skill set and experience which I admire.

 

But if you ask me a relatively newbie in amateur photography then I say I want your skill set in so far as settings, composition, etc but as to the question of "decisive moment" I think technology of burst rate will take care of it better, far better than human response and unpredictable and extenuating circumstances surrounding that "decisive moment".

 

 

 

If you do not understand this........"it is not how others feel it is all about how you feel"..........then there is no hope for you Im afraid.

Do you really think that we are all so stupid not to understand that by taking a still image from a video you will get the decisive moment.You must try to understand that there is not one decisive moment ,..there is only YOUR decisive moment....

[phancj]

No, I never assume anyone to be stupid, it's a healthy debate. Taking a burst mode is NOT equivalent to a video. What I am trying to put across is the fact that the word "decisive moment" is open to interpretation and it can be a few gestures within that moment. And by shooting a couple frames in that second or millisecond by burst mode we record more not less of that "decisive moment".

 

I am only arguing against the purist way that you should only take one shot at that moment, and as someone else has stated if you do not succeed then the moment is lost. The OP and I are merely saying that given the impermanence of that moment and the less than ideal conditions sometimes and often the changing circumstances at that split second plus the possibility of camera shake in certain situations burst mode ensures the successful capture of that valuable decisive moment.

 

I sense a hint of agitation, this is a forum for nice discussion. I hope it does not end badly. Take it easy please.

[jsrockit]

Two men get to the top of a mountain,one climbs up through wind and snow,suffers all the danger and excitment of the climb over several days,......the other flies in a helicopter straight to the top in a matter of minutes.

 

The important thing is "the journey" (said in Bruce Lee accent)

 

Well, both sound like pretty cool journeys to me... I've never been in a helicopter. One could argue that there is a good amount of danger in flying a helicopter in those conditions too...

[JanCderidder]

What if being there is more important to you as getting there ....

 

different people, different views .... and isn't Bruce Lee dead?

 

... and "the journey" can also be done by helicopter ...

[prk60091]

Having promised myself to not post in this thread again-I must admit I am human make mistakes and break promises even if only to myself.

 

The mountain climbing analogy is a good one but for the wrong reason.

 

Is it the process (ie journey) that is important, or is it the result? Or said another way is the goal to climb a mountain or to reach the top?

 

To the opponents of multiple exposures (whether burst or exposure bracketing) it is the journey. To the OP and myself it is reaching the top.

 

I think WE are all fortunate to admire products from a company that allows for such different perspectives in image making. For Bill and his proponents there is the M series and for me and others like me there is the x1.

 

I think this thread has taken a look at the age old debate between rangefinder vs SLR into the 21st century.

 

 

Bill you were right when you said I was wrong to ask Andy to close this thread.

[phancj]

Just got hold of the book "The great LIFE Photographers", it is a compilation of some of the best works by Life photographers and contains many iconic images from 1920s to now.

 

What is evident is all images record history at that moment in its full glory, what is also evident is due to relatively primitive equipment, many photos have IQ that even a bad camera phone can better capture. which is not to take anything away from these all time great photographers since they make do with whatever is pinnacle of development at that time.

 

So I say, if they somehow rise from the grave they will be grabbing whatever technology they can muster, and take even better photos!

 

And that, my friends, will include burst mode when use decisively to capture under less than ideal conditions.

 

It is easy to romanticize, but I think great photographers want to take great pictures and will gladly risk their lives even for a great shot, I do not think they bother to look professional or are afraid of the condescending attitude that using burst mode makes one less professional or smacks of bad technique.

 

They just want the greatest picture employing any technique that will get them there!

[phancj]

Having promised myself to not post in this thread again-I must admit I am human make mistakes and break promises even if only to myself.

 

The mountain climbing analogy is a good one but for the wrong reason.

 

Is it the process (ie journey) that is important, or is it the result? Or said another way is the goal to climb a mountain or to reach the top?

 

To the opponents of multiple exposures (whether burst or exposure bracketing) it is the journey. To the OP and myself it is reaching the top.

 

I think WE are all fortunate to admire products from a company that allows for such different perspectives in image making. For Bill and his proponents there is the M series and for me and others like me there is the x1.

 

I think this thread has taken a look at the age old debate between rangefinder vs SLR into the 21st century.

 

 

Bill you were right when you said I was wrong to ask Andy to close this thread.

 

I agree with you up to a certain extent, and see differences between Ms and the X1. But I think burst mode is relevant to both cameras. We all know the relatively weaker high iso performance of the Ms, so in the case of challenging situations the M9 may require the burst mode with lower shutter speeds. I am unsure if this feature is present, but I sure hope so.

 

I thank the OP for bringing up this topic, as I never used burst mode before, only bracketing for HDR or when unsure of perfect exposure. The ability to have more files give me more options for PP as well.

 

Now that I have tried the use of burst mode, it will continue to be ONE of the weapons I can deploy in my arsenal, and my choice of equipment will include the ability of the camera in this regard.

 

And so everyone knows, I am not hosing the subjects down in the hope of getting lucky, I am taking more shots within that window of opportunity to ensure the perfect moment is captured.

[JanCderidder]

Being HCB, being an offspring from a well-off family gives you the time either to wait days upon end for the right shot or pay people to en-senate the shot .... not very many photographers currently can identify themselves with this.

 

off-topic; I still can't see the "quality" of HCB images, I have 8 books, browsed through them very closely and carefully taking care of details .... what is it what makes him him special... other than his reputation.... but then again how did he deserve that?

 

And what would HCB do with a 10 frame a second camera nowadays?

[phancj]

Being HCB, being an offspring from a well-off family gives you the time either to wait days upon end for the right shot or pay people to en-senate the shot .... not very many photographers currently can identify themselves with this.

 

off-topic; I still can't see the "quality" of HCB images, I have 8 books, browsed through them very closely and carefully taking care of details .... what is it what makes him him special... other than his reputation.... but then again how did he deserve that?

 

And what would HCB do with a 10 frame a second camera nowadays?

 

I think with digital photography being so convenient more and more people from all walks of life have the ability to capture great shots. You see it happening everywhere. Now good cameras are even in phones! Technology have empowered everyone with the ability to take superb shots for sure, a luxury for the elites in older times.

 

HCB being aristocratic and affluent will obviously buy into the latest gear, with the fastest frame rate and only the best will do, and that will empower him to scale bigger heights...he will be talking the "decisive burst"??!!

[JanCderidder]

HCB being aristocratic and affluent will obviously buy into the latest gear, with the fastest frame rate and only the best will do, and that will empower him to scale bigger heights...he will be talking the "decisive burst"??!!

 

:-)

[prk60091]

HCB being aristocratic and affluent will obviously buy into the latest gear, with the fastest frame rate and only the best will do, and that will empower him to scale bigger heights...he will be talking the "decisive burst"??!!

 

:-)

 

i had read someplace that HCB used a minilux as his camera just before he passed away.

 

(i am dragging my family to the HCB exhibit this weekend at the art institute of chicago )

 

I think he would enjoy the X1 over the M9

[fotografr]

I eat my peas with honey

I've done so all my life

It makes the peas taste funny

But it keeps them on the knife.

 

Anon

 

Andy, you made my day.

 

And a brief comment about the actual topic of discussion here: I used to carry a pair of M6 bodies, each equipped with motor winders, for my assignment work. Very frequently, in situations where a slow shutter speed was required, when a tripod couldn't be set up and when there were no people or rapidly changing scenes to record, I would hold the shutter down for a sequence of 5 or 6 shots in order to get a sharp result. This technique works, is valid, and there's not a damn thing wrong with it.

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Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[JanCderidder]

"I think he would enjoy the X1 over the M9"

 

if he was any kind of serious photographer he would indeed .... :-) (whoops)

[jsrockit]

off-topic; I still can't see the "quality" of HCB images, I have 8 books, browsed through them very closely and carefully taking care of details .... what is it what makes him him special... other than his reputation.... but then again how did he deserve that?

 

You have 8 books and you aren't a fan? I think what people fail to realize is that you have to think about his work in the context of its time. At that particular time, there were not many people doing this type of photography much less doing it well. If you cannot see that HCB gets the right shot at the right time and / or makes very good compositions... perhaps HCB's just not your thing. I'm not a huge fan of all of his work, but the ones I like, I like a lot and I think he deserves his place in history.