ho_co Posted July 10, 2006 Share #1 Posted July 10, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) In an article at http://digitalkamera.de/Info/Ausscheidungsrunde_der_Kamerahersteller_3379.asp there's a comment that begins: "Concord Camera, an American firm with development in Hong Kong and factory in China (dba for example under the brand Jenoptik)..." Isn't that the same name as the company that some on the forum speculate is doing the firmware for the digital M? Is it the same company? My general feeling (after unfortunately little experience in the matter) is that facts at digitalkamera.de are usually good, but conclusions are sometimes drawn fast and loose. --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 10, 2006 Posted July 10, 2006 Hi ho_co, Take a look here Jenoptik Chinese? American?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
marknorton Posted July 10, 2006 Share #2 Posted July 10, 2006 Not the same company, thank goodness. The company we're talking about is "Jenoptik Laser Optik Systeme GmbH", http://www.jenoptik-los.com. I don't know of any confirmation that they are a partner in the development of the M8 but it is at least plausible. If you look under "Products & Solutions", "Sensor Systems", you'll see the skills needed are there - and, they're only 110 miles or so from Solms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbedsted1234 Posted July 10, 2006 Share #3 Posted July 10, 2006 ho_co, The digitalkamera.de article says that concorde camera sell under the copyrighted name of jenoptik. Copyright ownber is Jenoptik Gmbh, with the website as indicated by Mark. So a sigh of relief Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbedsted1234 Posted July 10, 2006 Share #4 Posted July 10, 2006 Mark, Leica is in Hessen, whereas Jenoptik is in Sachsen, the most dynamic of the new länder. They know each other from several industry functions. Cheers, Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lll Posted July 10, 2006 Share #5 Posted July 10, 2006 Of course the same company, just another branch. They sell cheap chinese cameras under their lable - so what. On the other hand side they bought 51% of SINAR - good enough for a partner for Leica? They are making money on a lot of optical fields - thank god they are still making money. Forgotten, that the digilux 1 had a Canon lens, labeled Vario-Summicron? Forgotten all the chinese built compact-"Leicas"??? Where do you live, which dreams do You have? Friedhelm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lll Posted July 10, 2006 Share #6 Posted July 10, 2006 Sorry, but Jenoptik is in Jena / Thüringen (Thuringia). After the breakdown of the former GDR it was formed out of parts of the Carl Zeiss Jena Kombinat. Trace the roots even further and You will find this was the company, Oskar Barnack worked for before he went to Leitz... Friedhelm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted July 10, 2006 Share #7 Posted July 10, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) There was a thriving consumer camera business in the former East Germany - apart from Carl Zeiss in Jena there was Pentacon/Praktica and Exacta in Dresden and Meyer Optik in Goerlitz, very close to the Czech border. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 10, 2006 Author Share #8 Posted July 10, 2006 Of course the same company, just another branch. They sell cheap chinese cameras under their lable - so what. On the other hand side they bought 51% of SINAR - good enough for a partner for Leica? They are making money on a lot of optical fields - thank god they are still making money. Forgotten, that the digilux 1 had a Canon lens, labeled Vario-Summicron? Forgotten all the chinese built compact-"Leicas"??? Where do you live, which dreams do You have? Friedhelm You give good information; why is your tone so negative? Curious: A lot of people feel that the Digilux 1 had a Canon lens. Can you direct me to a source that could definitively say something about its origin? Thanks, Herr Fett! --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbedsted1234 Posted July 10, 2006 Share #9 Posted July 10, 2006 Of course the same company, just another branch. They sell cheap chinese cameras under their lable - so what. On the other hand side they bought 51% of SINAR - good enough for a partner for Leica? They are making money on a lot of optical fields - thank god they are still making money. Forgotten, that the digilux 1 had a Canon lens, labeled Vario-Summicron? Forgotten all the chinese built compact-"Leicas"??? Where do you live, which dreams do You have? Friedhelm Friedhelm, They are not the same. Jenoptik is involved with Sinar but not with Concord Camera. Cheers, Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 10, 2006 Share #10 Posted July 10, 2006 ...A lot of people feel that the Digilux 1 had a Canon lens. Can you direct me to a source that could definitively say something about its origin?... The Canon origin was a rumour indeed but this little gem was not designed nor manufactured by Leica according to Leica's CEO himself if i remember well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 10, 2006 Author Share #11 Posted July 10, 2006 The Canon origin was a rumour indeed but this little gem was not designed nor manufactured by Leica according to Leica's CEO himself if i remember well. LCT-- Digitalkamera.de had a chart a month or so ago, and decided via a an illogical process that the lens must originally have been a Canon design. I have no doubt that it was neither designed nor constructed by Leica. I'm bothered by seeing the "it's a Canon" rumor again, still with no source referenced. And if I'm correct that this is the first Panasonic lens that appeared under the Leica name, then it may be the one which the president of Panasonic was talking about when he explained the difficulties Panasonic had when first trying to meet Leica's standards. I'd just like some information rather than speculation <sigh>. --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 10, 2006 Share #12 Posted July 10, 2006 On one side Leica said this but on the other side, that same lens could be found on 8 other digicams: Canon G2, Sony DSC-S85 & DSC-S75, Casio QV-3500 & 4000, Epson 3000Z & 3100Z and of course Panasonic LC5. Difficult to know the truth isn't it. Oops sorry way off topic... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgegreen Posted July 10, 2006 Share #13 Posted July 10, 2006 To the best of my knowledge and belief, the lens type used on the Lumix LC5/Digilux 1 first appeared on the Casio QV-3000EX/Ir in January 2000, labelled as a Canon lens, although a rather similar lens had been used on the previous QV-2000UX in June 1999 and Epson PhotoPC 850 Zoom in August 1999. The difference in aperture range (F2.0/2.8-11) on these two lenses compared to the F2.0/2.5-8 of the later lenses is most likely because the sensor size changed from 1/2" to 1/1.8". Google supplied references to reviews of these cameras. The rest is history. The lens type has apparently been used by Canon (G1, G2), Casio (QV-3000EX/Ir, QV-3500EX, QV-4000, QV-5700), Epson (PhotoPC 3000 Zoom, 3100 Zoom), Leica (Digilux 1), Panasonic (Lumix DMC-LC5) and Sony (DSC-S70, DSC-S75, DSC-S85). There may well be others. I would imagine that the lens coatings were improved over the lifetime of the design. Phil Askey of DPReview commented on the popularity of this lens type in his reviews of the Epson PhotoPC 3000 Zoom (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/epsonphotopc3000z/), Canon G1 (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canong1/) and Sony DSC-S75 (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscs75/). I bought a Casio QV-3000EX/Ir in June 2001, just as it and the later QV-3500EX were being replaced by the QV-4000. I still have the Casio, but now use a Lumix DMC-LC1... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 11, 2006 Author Share #14 Posted July 11, 2006 Thanks, both. Steven--Thanks for good detail on the matter; I'm going to check out the DPReview links. However, I personally would class a lens with different speed as a different lens. Also, though I know a lot of people feel that coatings regularly get improved over a period of time, my personal OPINION is that coatings are probably already optimized when the lens first goes into production, particularly with a relatively inexpensive and ubiquitous lens like this one. Not arguing, just stating my opinion. I have attached the graphic I mentioned from digitalkamera.de, from which they concluded that the lens of the Digilux 1 was originally a Canon design. As I said above, I feel you can read that from the data, but they support other scenarios as well. I double checked my earlier assumption and found that the first Panasonic camera to carry a Leica lens was the DMC-LC20. And it's funny, it's almost a year after the thread referred to below, and we're still discussing the same issue.... Poster W Neilson (at http://www.leica-camera.com/discus_e/messages/3/157657.html?1125151589) didn't give a source for the following but implied the material was available at the Panasonic web site: He quotes Ishiguro (Panasonic President? unidentified) in regard to the lens for the LC20: "We didn't get approval for the first lens that we submitted. In fact, right from the very start we had a sense that the collaboration itself was in danger. The problem wasn't in the lens itself, it was the fact that our appreciation of 'photorealism' had not yet reached the level that Leica Camera AG wanted.... "[W]hen it came to know-how about photorealism, that is, the art of forming highly nuanced images with a still camera, Panasonic was in an early learning stage.... "For the DMC-LC20, Leica Camera AG insisted that we work more on resolution and distortion*. The level that they were aiming at called for much more than just making a few corrections. Responding to this was a major undertaking, partly because we were working against a deadline. Somehow, after revising the specifications and getting the factory to help us in our response, we were able to attain the level we needed." In short, Panasonic seems to have been much more forthcoming than we had been used to from Leica's subcontractors. And the events indicate that Leica has been directly involved in the matter of performance of Leica-branded lenses. --HC samelens.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 11, 2006 Author Share #15 Posted July 11, 2006 Oops sorry way off topic... LCT? You or me off topic? Never! And until an angel descends from Heaven (or from the Harzgebirge) with TRUTH, the closest we've got is The Red Dot! --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 11, 2006 Share #16 Posted July 11, 2006 Sorry i forgot... Welcome to the forum Stephen! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 11, 2006 Share #17 Posted July 11, 2006 GETTING BACK ON TOPIC! (wink!): 1. Jenoptik is NOT confirmed, by anyone who actually knows, as Leica's new partner for the M8 - yet. (What would be their contribution exactly - I guess designing/assemblinging the circuitry that takes data off the Kodak sensor and digitizes it, and writing the firmware/software to run everything and make pictures from the data? Do they send 'units' to Leica for installation at Solms? Or does Leica send them hollow cameras to have the digital guts installed? Or half-and-half?) 2. Wondered about the connection to Zeiss Jena (given the name) but could find no company history on the website Mark provided. Used a Zeiss/Jena 180 f/2.8 once, converted to Nikon F-mount. Not bad for a 1960 lens - but as big and heavy as today's 300 f/2.8's!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted July 11, 2006 Share #18 Posted July 11, 2006 I do really hope it is NOT the same company ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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