ND filter + UV/IR filter Stacked on M8?

[wstotler]

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Hi!

 

I was shooting in very bright sunlight Friday and Sunday and was stuck at f/5.6 and 4000th/6000th of a second. I wanted to be shooting at f/2 and/or f/1.2.

 

So. . . . I'm going to purchase an E39 ND filter and also a E52 ND filter:

E39: ND Factor 1.2, four stops reduction.

E52: ND Factor 1.8, six stops reduction.

 

--> Have you used an ND filter and the UV/IR cut filter with OK results?

 

--> Should the stacking order be:

* Lens + ND Filter + UV/IR Cut Filter

* Lens + UV/IR Cut Filter + ND Filter

* Or, doesn't matter. . . .

 

Comments? And thanks in advance.

 

Cheers!

Will

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[jaapv]

I would put the UV/IR filter in front, to avoid it reflecting red color from the back of the ND filter onto the lens (just the other way around from a pol filter).

[karl101]

I've been using a welding mask filter, much cheaper at 71p, although the results are a little on the green side. But if I call it "art" I might just get away with it?. I had the UV/IR filter on behind the glass.

 

 

More here: Long Daylight Exposures - a set on Flickr

 

And if anyone can tell me where I can get a 10 stop ND filter with a E39 thread I'd be eternally grateful. B+H advertise them but, apparently, don't make them. I've had one on order for eight weeks at Robert White, other suppliers have said "good luck with that".

 

Karl

[wstotler]

Jaapv--thanks for the advice!

 

Karl101--B&H Photo Video looks like they have them in stock:

B+W 39mm #110 Neutral Density (ND) 3.0 Filter 65066680 - B&H

--> That's the 3.0 factor, which is a claimed 10-stop reduction in light.

 

I purchased a 52mm 1.8 for my CV 35mm f/1.2. It will be awesome to shoot wide open and have the top-end dropped by 6 stops to deal with raging daylight.

 

Cheers!

Will

[karl101]

Karl101--B&H Photo Video looks like they have them in stock:

B+W 39mm #110 Neutral Density (ND) 3.0 Filter 65066680 - B&H

--> That's the 3.0 factor, which is a claimed 10-stop reduction in light.

 

Thanks for the info, I'll probably buy from them once I've exhausted the options for buying one in the UK, the duties and postal costs more than double the price. Of course I meant B+W filters, not B+H in my original post.

 

Karl.

[jaapv]

From the UK it is simpler to source them from Foto Huppert in Germany than from the USA.

[farnz]

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... And if anyone can tell me where I can get a 10 stop ND filter with a E39 thread I'd be eternally grateful. B+H advertise them but, apparently, don't make them. I've had one on order for eight weeks at Robert White, other suppliers have said "good luck with that".

 

Karl

Karl,

 

I regularly use 0.3 and 0.2 ND Heliopan filters that I bought from Teamwork Photo in the UK, who are normally next day delivery and very knowledgeable on the phone. They advertise a 10-stop 3.0 ND Heliopan filter here but they will contact you without delay if you've placed an order from an item that's not in stock.

 

 

Will,

 

I normally use my ND filter on the outside of my UV/IR filter but that's more for convenience (laziness:rolleyes:) and I haven't noticed problems with flare or veiling glare.

 

Pete.

[karl101]

I regularly use 0.3 and 0.2 ND Heliopan filters that I bought from Teamwork Photo in the UK, who are normally next day delivery and very knowledgeable on the phone. They advertise a 10-stop 3.0 ND Heliopan filter here but they will contact you without delay if you've placed an order from an item that's not in stock

 

Thanks, they now have one in the post to me, I'm going to assume that Robert White won't be able to supply a B+W one.

 

Karl.

[paisatge]

 

I normally use my ND filter on the outside of my UV/IR filter but that's more for convenience (laziness:rolleyes:) and I haven't noticed problems with flare or veiling glare.

 

 

Ditto

[bocaburger]

The biggest thing isn't which way you stack the filters as much as whether the filters are multicoated or just single-coated. Leica and B+W UV-IR filters are only single coated. Heliopan's are multi coated. Of other filter types, they're normally marked "SMC" or "HMC" (Hoya) or "MRC" (B+W) or similar if they're multi coated.

 

I've got Heliopan UV-IR with B+W "MRC" UV filters stacked on every one of my lenses (the IR filters are very expensive, and I already had the UV filters anyway) and have yet to see one instance of flare or ghosting or reflections even under bright street lights or indoor spotlights. OTOH I found the Leica UV-IR filters to occasionally give reflections just by themselves.

[wstotler]

Follow-up: Shot with f/1.2 and the 1.8 ND filter yesterday. Worked well overall, and really made a difference when using off-camera TTL flash--I could balance out the background/subject convincingly. Now I just need way more practice.

 

I do think that the ND 1.2 Factor filter (four stop reduction) might be a better option, based on my shooting styles and the situations I encountered. E.g., too many times I was down to 1/30th, 1/60th--I'd have been better off to be at 1/125th or 1/250th at the low end. (Esp. a problem when freehanding flash--I'd have been OK at 1/250th, but 1/60th is marginal for steady M8 one-hand-holding and nailing f/1.2 focus, in my case.)

 

Thanks, everyone, for the advice.

 

Shots from the set yesterday here, BTW:

Arpita Patel Photoshoot - a set on Flickr

 

Cheers!

Will

[alex7075]

I've got Heliopan UV-IR with B+W "MRC" UV filters stacked on every one of my lenses (the IR filters are very expensive, and I already had the UV filters anyway) and have yet to see one instance of flare or ghosting or reflections even under bright street lights or indoor spotlights. OTOH I found the Leica UV-IR filters to occasionally give reflections just by themselves.

 

bocaburger, do you mean that with Heliopan multicoated UV-IR filters you don't get the green blobs caused by highlight reflections on the filter itself?

[bocaburger]

bocaburger, do you mean that with Heliopan multicoated UV-IR filters you don't get the green blobs caused by highlight reflections on the filter itself?

 

I mean I don't get any ghosts or reflections that I wouldn't get with the naked lens. I thought green blobs was an issue cured by the recall of early bodies?

[alex7075]

I mean I don't get any ghosts or reflections that I wouldn't get with the naked lens. I thought green blobs was an issue cured by the recall of early bodies?

 

Thanks for your answer. I'll post an example to show you what I mean by green blobs / reflections :

 

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This is given by the UV/IR filter of course.

If multicoated filters don't produce these reflections, I am going to order them immediately!

[bocaburger]

Alex, I never got that exact effect even with the Leica or B+W filter, but if you're sure it came from the filter, then I would suggest buying one Heliopan filter to start, and see if it does the trick. I'd hate for you to buy a whole bunch of them and then find out it wasn't the answer to your problem.

[jaapv]

Thanks for your answer. I'll post an example to show you what I mean by green blobs / reflections :

 

[ATTACH]212183[/ATTACH]

 

This is given by the UV/IR filter of course.

If multicoated filters don't produce these reflections, I am going to order them immediately!

But it is so easy to corect this image in CS5..

[bocaburger]

But it is so easy to corect this image in CS5..

 

We have a saying in the US "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" (If that doesn't make sense, substitute 30g and 0,5 kilo, respectively )

[wstotler]

We have a saying in the US "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" (If that doesn't make sense, substitute 30g and 0,5 kilo, respectively )

 

Yes, we have another saying here in the U.S., which goes like this: "More trouble that it's worth." Alongside "Don't shoot yourself in the foot." There was debate in another recent thread about leaving the UV/IR filter off all the time. My take (and Jaapv's take, also, which is where I think he's coming from) is that for the few times you see this problem, it's not worth leaving the filters off all the time--in rare cases where reflections appear on a "keeper" just fix it. The alternative is gross and constant color shifts that require even more work in post over all images all the time. And what might be fixable by cloning (reflections) may not be worth unfixable color--and you're going to get that consistently. Hey, you want to do that way, knock yourself out.

 

That said, I'd be interested to know proof-positive that different filters produce no reflections. IMO, nobody has proved that yet anywhere on the forum. It's a great theory. Sounds like a new thread to me, with side-by side testing. One anectotal aside doesn't get us there--I do believe you aren't having an issue--but it would be good to have this proven.

 

I've had no trouble with the ND filter + UV/IR filter combo causing ghosting reflections so far. If I do have issues with the combo, I'll update here.

 

Cheers!

Will

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Hallo,

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[bocaburger]

Yes, we have another saying here in the U.S., which goes like this: "More trouble that it's worth." Alongside "Don't shoot yourself in the foot." There was debate in another recent thread about leaving the UV/IR filter off all the time. My take (and Jaapv's take, also, which is where I think he's coming from) is that for the few times you see this problem, it's not worth leaving the filters off all the time--in rare cases where reflections appear on a "keeper" just fix it. The alternative is gross and constant color shifts that require even more work in post over all images all the time. And what might be fixable by cloning (reflections) may not be worth unfixable color--and you're going to get that consistently. Hey, you want to do that way, knock yourself out.

 

You've got me mixed up with someone else I think. I always use IR filters all the time. I've even made my own adapters for the C/V 15 and 12 (I use a 489 with the 12, corrects enough of the contamination for the infrequency of my use of that lens, and less trouble than Cornerfix every shot )

 

That said, I'd be interested to know proof-positive that different filters produce no reflections. IMO, nobody has proved that yet anywhere on the forum. It's a great theory. Sounds like a new thread to me, with side-by side testing. One anectotal aside doesn't get us there--I do believe you aren't having an issue--but it would be good to have this proven.

 

My one anecdotal aside is based on many thousands of reflection-free shots. If I catch a bad cold or it monsoons here and I'm stuck indoors with absolutely nothing better to do, I suppose I might do some test shots with different filters. Then again, I don't own every Leica lens ever made, and can't possibly replicate every shooting situation ever encountered. My suggestion is simply to take Leica, B+W, and Heliopan UV/IR filters, lay them flat on the kitchen table and look at your reflection. Tell me if you don't see much less of your reflection in the Heliopan. To me that's solid evidence their AR coating does a superior job at negating reflections.

[wstotler]

You've got me mixed up with someone else I think. *I always use IR filters all the time. *I've even made my own adapters for the C/V 15 and 12 (I use a 489 with the 12, corrects enough of the contamination for the infrequency of my use of that lens, and less trouble than Cornerfix every shot ).

 

I took your original response to Jaapv regarding an "ounce of prevention" as meaning to leave the filters on at all times. I was agreeing with you. But on a re-read I do see that my response wasn't entirely clear in that regard, so apologies for being unclear.

 

 

My one anecdotal aside is based on many thousands of reflection-free shots. *If I catch a bad cold or it monsoons here and I'm stuck indoors with absolutely nothing better to do, I suppose I might do some test shots with different filters. *Then again, I don't own every Leica lens ever made, and can't possibly replicate every shooting situation ever encountered.

 

I wasn't suggesting testing absolutely everything. And I also wasn't dismissing your claim--I stated in my post above that I believe you. In the larger context of the body of work the Forum reprsents, yes, sorry, it is an anecdotal aside. This does not mean your experience is trival, or false, so, again, please don't take offense.

 

What I am saying is that it should be looked at by several people who have both types of filters in a known reflection-provoking condition. Put each on, get the reflection with one filter and then prove the other doesn't get the reflection in the same conditions. Vary conditions a bit, rinse and repeat.

 

People purchase things based on opinions they read here--yes, buyer beware and all manner of warnings about Forum advice--and I think this deserves its own thread so it can be looked at closely.

 

If it is true, and repeatable across a few users and a few different types of lenses, then it might be said safely that one is significantly less likely to encounter the reflections if one uses "brand X." (Although batches of filters differ, lenses differ, and so on.) It would be helpful to others to corroborate your experience in a meaningful way.

 

 

My suggestion is simply to take Leica, B+W, and Heliopan UV/IR filters, lay them flat on the kitchen table and look at your reflection. *Tell me if you don't see much less of your reflection in the Heliopan. *To me that's solid evidence their AR coating does a superior job at negating reflections

 

Respectfully and sincerely, just because a filter appears less reflective in the conditions you describe, I do not believe it is accurate from this to conclude that when properly mounted the filter is any more or any less effective at reducing reflections, as designed. Have to mount them, have to test them to know.

 

Cheers,

Will