When it rains, it pours!

[zlatkob]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I didn't comment on your buying behaviour.

Right, you only disparaged my ethics and pitied those who do business with me. Very diplomatic of you, Mr. Ambassador.

 

You make it sound as if the dealer will suffer a loss if you "let him down". But the dealer will sell it to someone else and make his margin anyway. Happily the camera is in demand and will not be sitting on a shelf.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[bill]

It seems that you can't. Why am I not surprised?

 

I'll leave you chained to your certitude.

[charlesphoto99]

If you are going to put yourself on multiple lists, tell the dealers concerned.

 

Fair enough, though I doubt any of these dealers are naive enough to not think that people are not getting on multiple lists when delivery is so random by Leica. Like I said, if a dealer has to special order the camera vs just being in the pipeline for a delivery no matter what, then it's a different story.

[bill]

Thank you Charles. Any dealer will have to carry the camera as stock inventory on their books from the moment it arrives until it is sold. That may not be a big issue to the big dealers but for the smaller outfits how much money they have tied up in inventory, and for how long, is a real issue.

 

I am glad you can see that.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[sunil]

Commitment ~ An agreement to perform a particular activity at a certain time in the future under certain circumstances.

 

Trust ~ Firm reliance on the integrity, ability, or character of a person or thing.

 

Integrity ~ Strict adherence to a moral code, reflected in transparent honesty and complete harmony in what one thinks, says, and does.

 

I only quote the above because they clearly have no meaning in your world. As far as your logic goes, a dealer may as well just screw up the paper your order is written on as soon as you walk out of the door. I pity those with whom you do business.

 

Wow, I'd sure like to live in the world you live in where business is conducted like that. No such luck in the telecom world where I reside. In your world we would not need contracts or lawyers. Imagine. Business would be conducted purely on one's word. Where does this mythic garden of eden exist and how do we get there?

[faraz]

Commitment ~ An agreement to perform a particular activity at a certain time in the future under certain circumstances.

 

Trust ~ Firm reliance on the integrity, ability, or character of a person or thing.

 

Integrity ~ Strict adherence to a moral code, reflected in transparent honesty and complete harmony in what one thinks, says, and does.

 

I only quote the above because they clearly have no meaning in your world. As far as your logic goes, a dealer may as well just screw up the paper your order is written on as soon as you walk out of the door. I pity those with whom you do business.

 

I find this post highly condescending and unbecoming of a self proclaimed gentleman. To accuse one of having no integrity without basis in fact, is well, I don't really have words for this behavior, it just appears petty and vindictive. I don't understand this increasingly common behavior on the Internet in general and to some extent here in particular.

[bill]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Where does this mythic garden of eden exist and how do we get there?

 

It's all around you if you behave with integrity, because many others will then respond in kind. Of course it is not as simple as you imply; the world is full is cheats, scoundrels and those to whom "ethics" is a county to the South-East of London. It is those for whom cast-iron contracts are needed; or simply take your business elsewhere.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[bill]

I find this post highly condescending...

 

As you wish. I'm not the one advocating unethical behaviour.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[spylaw4]

All dealers should request you to place a (preferably non-refundable) deposit to go on any waiting list, especially if the item is scarce. Eventually your name will pop to the top and you'll think the wait was worth it.

[andybarton]

A verbal contract (which is what placing yourself on a list without a deposit actually is) is, as someone older and wiser than anyone here once said "worth the paper it's written on"

 

BUT, Leica reps go around their dealers every week/month and ask "How many M9 orders, Joe?" Anyone who doesn't think that this gets fed back to that giant mainframe in Solms is very naive, IMHO.

[leicashot]

Good for you. I didn't comment on your buying behaviour.

 

 

 

And there's the rub. Clearly in your world, a commitment isn't. The great thing about "everyone" is that they don't all think in the same way.

 

If I walk into my local dealer and ask to be put on a waitlist for a £4850 piece of equipment I have a realistic expectation that he will do his best to secure that equipment for me and thus make his margin on it. He in turn has a reasonable expectation that I will purchase said piece of equipment when he sources it for me. If he lets me down, I may reasonably take my future business elsewhere. If I let him down I would reasonably expect him to not put himself out for me in the future.

 

Can. You. Not. See. That?

 

Bill, that was quite rude. Zlatkob is not wrong and neither are you but your response is obviously one filled with some sort of frustration and you shouldn't be taking it out on forum members for expressing a pretty simple opinion.

[zlatkob]

The original post was about being on a waiting list, not placing an order. An order is a transaction, usually with written terms and a payment or credit card authorization. A waiting list doesn't create a transaction or a contract, verbal or otherwise. It's not a promise by either party and there's no consideration exchanged. The dealer merely says, "If we get any cameras, we'll contact people in the order of the list." There's no obligation to get it. There's no promise to buy it. There's no deadline to get it. There is no specific time period for either party to "wait". There are no terms. Even the price can change. If the camera comes in, the dealer calls and says, "A camera came in and you're next on the wait list. Do you want it?" At that point the photographer may have an option to buy, or to let it go to the next person on the list. It's a popular camera at this point, so every camera gets sold. At the point when supply meets and exceeds demand and cameras start to sit on shelves, there won't be any waiting lists. I am sure that Leica's reps and execs know the difference between waiting lists and orders.

[GarethC]

The original post was about being on a waiting list, not placing an order. An order is a transaction, usually with written terms and a payment or credit card authorization. A waiting list doesn't create a transaction or a contract, verbal or otherwise. It's not a promise by either party and there's no consideration exchanged. The dealer merely says, "If we get any cameras, we'll contact people in the order of the list." There's no obligation to get it. There's no promise to buy it. There's no deadline to get it. There is no specific time period for either party to "wait". There are no terms. Even the price can change. If the camera comes in, the dealer calls and says, "A camera came in and you're next on the wait list. Do you want it?" At that point the photographer may have an option to buy, or to let it go to the next person on the list. It's a popular camera at this point, so every camera gets sold. At the point when supply meets and exceeds demand and cameras start to sit on shelves, there won't be any waiting lists. I am sure that Leica's reps and execs know the difference between waiting lists and orders.

 

Exactly. Let's flip it on it's head and get the dealer to pay the customer a refundable deposit in exchange for THEIR commitment to get the camera if the customer commits to placing an order with them exclusively. A waiting list is merely a commitment to wait, which Stan did.......patiently..........on 4 lists. There was no commitment to time period or price from either the retailer or the customer. This has nothing to do with ethics Bill, the customer and the retailers made the same level of commitment, limited at best.

 

By the way Stan, I thoroughly enjoyed your galleries and I do hope that Bill's rant won't detract from the enjoyment of the photographic experience.

[Nikkor AIS]

Congratulations Stan. I dont think you did anything wrong. Black M9:). You must be very excited. As far as Bill "the gentleman" I agree your rude.. Not to mention coming off very high and mighty. What is ther matter with you? ,Your supoosed to be a gentleman? Why dont you act like it. Make the world a better place. Act and talk on this forum like would if the man/women was starting eye to eye, in the face.

I feel zlatkob has it right. It's a waiting list. My dealer dosnt even have a list because, as he put it "without an order it's meaningless". And since even my order dosnt garenntee a M9 anytimer soon. Im not parting with $6,000 to sit in my dealers bank account. What if he goes out of business? if you ask me the whole waiting list process in it self is ripe for corruption. Can I see the list? I dont think it's corrupt or unwise to be on multibal list if you think it will get you camera faster. How is the dealer putting himself out one bit by having anyone on a list? It's not like me calling up my pal Tim at Vintage visu*** and asking him to put aside that minty black Leica MP. See in that case I gave my word. Hold the camera .I want to buy it. He did and when he finally answered his phone a couple days later we met and I got it.

But a list , please.

 

And Andy I think what my Pal Tim and had I with the MP was a verbal contract. A list is more like if comes in all call you. "If" I get a hold of you and you still want it kind of thing. Someones word is differnt , at least to me. I give my word, as far Im concerned, it's a done deal.

 

Gregory

[bill]

I truly find it fascinating that so many here regard ethics as negotiable.

 

This is not a kidney transplant you are waiting for, it is, for the amateurs at least, a luxury item. If you are impatient, by all means shop around. But if you tell someone you will buy it from them if they get it for you, buy it from them.

 

One last scenario:

 

"I'll take you to dinner on Friday night"

 

Are you going to say that to four girls, to make sure you have a date, then let three of them know, on Friday evening, that you are going out with someone else?

 

It's not a contract - no consideration has passed - but in this example you would deserve to be called a bastard of the first water. Nobody would be queuing up to slap you on the back then. Your chances of getting a second chance with the three girls you have messed about are infinitesimally small. Better hope that the one you took out doesn't let you down, in future, or find out how cavalierly you behave to other women.

 

I know damn well that contract has not been formed unless consideration has passed - that is the point of a deposit - but it seems that the whole concept of someone's word being their bond is alien to many here. I don't rant - I am English, after all - I speak plainly. That may cause discomfort in those who know I have a point.

 

Oh, and Gregory,

 

Act and talk on this forum like would if the man/women was starting eye to eye, in the face.

 

I do. As the many from here who have met me will attest.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[leicashot]

Bill that is not the same thing and you know it. Each scenario has it's variables and the M9 is so hot that if it doesn't sell this minute, it'll sell the next to someone else. If the dealer is that concerned, they wouldn't have 'non-deposit' waiting lists.

[bill]

Bill that is not the same thing and you know it.

 

Thank you for proving my point. It would appear that you are one of those who regard ethics as negotiable.

 

...the M9 is so hot that if it doesn't sell this minute, it'll sell the next to someone else.

 

...which is why you simply can't walk into any dealer, anywhere, or 'phone them up on the off-chance and find that they have an M9 sitting on their shelves?

 

Clearly those people who have managed to do that have called in the nanosecond between someone letting them down and picking up the 'phone for the next person in line...

 

If the dealer is that concerned, they wouldn't have 'non-deposit' waiting lists.

 

If all dealers operated the same, I would agree with you. But some are larger than others. Those who can absorb stock are not going to be that concerned. Those who cannot, but who will kill any chance of a sale by asking for a deposit when the big boys do not, will soon find themselves with a reducing revenue stream.

 

It seems the dealers are in the boat here of being the suckers to whom nobody is prepared to give an even break.

 

Edit: I'm genuinely interested to note that those who have commented and expressed an alternate, and in some cases, extreme viewpoint to my own are almost exclusively resident in the US. I am not sure what to make of that, but I do find it curious. Perhaps it is a cultural divide thing.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[leicashot]

Thank you for proving my point. It would appear that you are one of those who regard ethics as negotiable.

 

 

 

...which is why you simply can't walk into any dealer, anywhere, or 'phone them up on the off-chance and find that they have an M9 sitting on their shelves?

 

Clearly those people who have managed to do that have called in the nanosecond between someone letting them down and picking up the 'phone for the next person in line...

 

 

 

If all dealers operated the same, I would agree with you. But some are larger than others. Those who can absorb stock are not going to be that concerned. Those who cannot, but who will kill any chance of a sale by asking for a deposit when the big boys do not, will soon find themselves with a reducing revenue stream.

 

It seems the dealers are in the boat here of being the suckers to whom nobody is prepared to give an even break.

 

Edit: I'm genuinely interested to note that those who have commented and expressed an alternate, and in some cases, extreme viewpoint to my own are almost exclusively resident in the US. I am not sure what to make of that, but I do find it curious. Perhaps it is a cultural divide thing.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

I never proved anything that insinuates that ethics is negotiable....but you know what? Ethics is not law, and therefor not black and white, so it's more negotiable than not. Ethics is a grey area and always will be.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[rob_x2004]

Innocuous OP, to requiring a summit to solve the insurmountable problems of the world, and Bills not yet even started in on at the Germans or the Chinese for contributing to imbalances in the global marketplace.

[SteveYork]

This discussion is way too funny. Although I don't do it, it's very common for people to be on multiple waiting lists. I'm sure there was no problem for the dealers in getting rid of the M9s. As far as I know, dealers can't get enough.

 

What's the difference between be on multiple waiting lists, waiting for the first camera to come your way, and being on a single, nonbinding waiting list, and declining when your number comes up?

 

You all need to stop[ the banter, and go take some pictures.