Will Leica ever embrace the digital age?

[leicashot]

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I don't think I need to be in his shoes to understand what it would be like to have equipment fail on the job. Please, it isn't that hard to imagine.

 

.

 

This is a little ignorant of you to say, and it isn't reflected in the sentiment and writing of your comments. You'll never know until you're in the shoes and facing the pressure and demands of a client job, where your family's future depends on your ability, and your camera's reliability. No one is attacking you for being an amateur. If anything, I'm envious of you for being one.

 

Have a good one.

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[diogenis]

Like Jaap says, apply for this service even now.

You were most unfortunate, because the system failed. And it failed not because you didnt applied for pro service, but because every other dealer refused to help you with loaners. You didn't had a second body as a backup because they are expensive and times ahead are indeed tough -very tough- so the whole experience is fail.

 

Now, before blaming Leica, let's just backtrack and correct steps that have failed. At some point you will need to buy a second body.

[vanhulsenbeek]

What is this thread about ?

[pico]

zlatkob - I always find it interesting that a few of the pro's that come on this forum, certainly not all, have the idea that the level of performance and reliability they need is somehow higher than what the amateur requires. Read zlatkob's last post and the OP on this thread and several other pro's current threads.

 

[... please forgive gratuitous snip...]

 

I appreciate your comment that to lose a picture of a lifetime (or even just one you might have liked) is a very bad thing to anyone.

 

Please consider a different perspective: when a professional photographer fails due to hardware problems, it is a loss for his client and his relationship to the client as well as a loss to the photographer. Perhaps it is like a surgeon finds that the closing surgeon messes up his work, or a laser-scalpel fails, or a drug he has depended upon for years is mis-manufactured and injures a patient.

 

Just a thought.

 

With that said, I've been a photographer since 1964 with Leicas and lots of other gear (most of it rangefinder). I never, ever went without adequate backup. Cameras do fail, although a Leica M2 or M4 has never failed me. I cannot say the same with the M7. I dare not get an M9 because of the escalating fragility of electronic Leicas.

 

If you are a pro, you need backup equipment. Period. Success with the equipment you choose is entirely up to the pro. Backup, backup, backup. ($$$).

[jaapv]

This is a little ignorant of you to say, and it isn't reflected in the sentiment and writing of your comments. You'll never know until you're in the shoes and facing the pressure and demands of a client job, where your family's future depends on your ability, and your camera's reliability. No one is attacking you for being an amateur. If anything, I'm envious of you for being one.

 

Have a good one.

I don't know about that, many of us are professionals whose reputation is on the line each and every working day. Dependence on technology is not limited to photography.

[bill]

I've stayed out of this one so far, but I just want to make one small point.

 

The only real difference between an "amateur" and a "pro" is how they make a living. For me, photography is a pastime. That is why I describe myself as a "Gentleman Amateur" - the term comes from cricket, when sides were made up from those who were paid (the "professionals") and those who did it for the love of it (the "amateurs") who were usually of independent means.

 

I frankly don't give a toss how anybody here chooses to make their living - it makes your views and opinions no more valid than anybody else's. There are people here whose opinion I respect, and others to whom I wouldn't give house room - that has nothing to do with their profession, more to do with their attitude, knowledge and willingness to help others less experienced than themselves. Far too many people here are takers, who onanistically broadcast their views. There are pros in that camp, and amateurs too. Always remember the age-old truism - opinions are like arseholes - we all have them and they all stink.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[iangee]

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I endorse the view that no professional should go on an assignment with a single camera body. Most of my work over forty plus years was with Hasselblads and my basic equipment was three bodies, four lenses and four magazines plus Polaroid backs.

 

The cameras did not fail often but they did occasionally and back up was essential. The most common faults were the shutter failing, the aperture collapsing, a lens becoming locked to body, light leak (not discovered till processing. Hence no single assignment was done with a sngle back.

 

When I added a Leica M6 I also bought an second hand M2. Faults with these included the rangefinder ( overcome temporarily by scale focussing),and flash synchronisation.

 

Now as an amateur I still carry back up for my M9. On a recent trip to Italy on holiday I took my M2, knowing I could use all my lenses and buy additional colour negative films still, should it be necessary. I am glad to say my M9 behaved impeccably throughout.

 

I could have taken my M8 but decided on the M2 because it was only a back up, and the great advantage with digital over film, is that at least you know at the time you have a problem.

 

Ian

[Rick]

This is a little ignorant of you to say, and it isn't reflected in the sentiment and writing of your comments. You'll never know until you're in the shoes and facing the pressure and demands of a client job, where your family's future depends on your ability, and your camera's reliability. No one is attacking you for being an amateur. If anything, I'm envious of you for being one.

 

Have a good one.

Again, you are just going to have to take it on faith that it really isn't a big stretch at all for me to understand the pressure and demands of a client who wants a picture taken. I deal with it every day in a different profession. Don't you think it is a little ignorant and egocentric, on your part, to not assume that other professionals might be able to relate quite easily?

 

I'll try and sum it up. A professional photographer has no greater demands or expectations than an amateur. And, there is really no excuse for writing childish diatribes, open letters containing ultimatums and litigious statements directed to Leica and posting them here. Or, trying to rationalize that pro's have greater expectations of reliability and amateurs can't understand because we are eye-candy-collecting-fetishist-doctors that haven't walked in their shoes. Really, have you read some of the posts here?

 

Discussion of issues should be welcome but, often there is no intention of solving the problem or contributing to the greater good of the forum knowledge (e.g. the memory card issue never helped anyone).

[thrid]

The future of Leica is in amateurs' hands as they are the main source of income for the company.

 

That is also the case with Nikon, Canon etc. It's always been like that, but it shouldn't be an excuse for a company to not to produce professional grade equipment, if they claim to be the maker of such. If you aim low, you are most likely going to hit low.

 

 

If you're wanting to use any Leica on assignment, you need at least 2 bodies or take a Canon/Nikon - its the way of modern Leica and it ain't gonna change. The days of the trusty mechanical M are well behind us now.

 

You always need to take a backup, regardless of the brand or if you are a pro or amateur.

Everything fails eventually.

 

 

I guaranteed more doctors/dentists/lawyers and business men own more M9's that any Pros and if they have an issue, they just buy another while one is in for repair. The company will continue without support for Pros, like it or not - of course, I don't, but its the way it is, sadly.

 

IN that case they will continue on a downward spiral in terms of quality and technology.

[thrid]

I'll try and sum it up. A professional photographer has no greater demands or expectations than an amateur.

 

The difference is that if the camera of an amateur breaks down and they miss a shot they can say 'Oh, shucks' and be done with it. Disappointing, but with little or no consequence.

 

If a pro misses a shot, because their camera breaks down, it can mean their job and loss of income, with all the fallout that goes along with it.

 

So, yes, there is no difference between the expectations that an amateur and professional have of their gear. Both expect their gear to perform as it was intended. Both paid the same price and all customers are equal.

 

But a breakdown at the wrong moment will have a profoundly different effect on the two.

 

That is the point that is trying to be made.

 

Which is why traditionally professionals have been willing to spend extra money to purchase a camera that was overbuild and designed to survive the rigors of being used heavily and sometimes under hostile conditions, year in and year out. Unfortunately the M9 does not meet that criteria and that is mainly due to certain design decisions by Leica.

[zlatkob]

RickLeica, you're needlessly making this into a personal thing, with words like "ignorant", "egocentric" and "moronic".

 

My point is a functional one. It's not about passing judgment on any photographer or Leica, and it's not about "relating" to someone else's job.

 

To explain by analogy, I can understand the demands on a professional athlete, but I don't actually experience what they do. If you survive by winning bicycle races, you have a different experience — and a different perspective on bicycles — than if you're bicycling with the family. I think that's a statement of fact, not a put-down of people who bicycle with their family, which is a great thing to do.

 

When the user's experience is in fact different, it leads to a different perspective on the tools needed. And likewise, from the manufacturer's perspective, the intended user influences numerous decisions about the product, from design to production to repairs.

[Rick]

zlatkob - You really need to read what you and others post here. I won't respond if you continually take things out of context and continue to characterize the amateur as "bicycling with the family" while you are a the winning Tour de France uber athlete. Come on, I don't think many are buying it.

 

I'm done, really.

[schnapshot]

I love my M9. And many things about leica are great (like fast high quality primes).

 

But it seems that leica could still make some improvements in the electronic department (speed, buffer, meter, battery drain, sensor cleaning (!) etc.).

 

On my nikon gear I almost never have this many dust spots.

 

 

BTW: For professional work I personally would use a canon/nikon FF dslr.

[neli]

Personally, I would spend the money for "Platinum Pro Service" (loaner cameras, expedited repairs, about $2,000) for my M9, if it were available. But I think even the basic warranty service could use substantial improvement. 4 weeks at a maximum. That probably requires significant investment in staff and parts availability (and no volcanoes )

 

If Leica wants to impress ME at photokina - they will skip the lens and cameras, and announce a serious upgrade and reorganization to the service program, whether centralized at Solms or distributed among the national or regional Leica distributors (or a combination of both). IMHO they can and should hold off on introducing new "toys" until they get the service upgraded.

 

hear hear!

my sentiments exactly

 

 

 

ok, and a 28 lux.

[bocaburger]

I don't know about that, many of us are professionals whose reputation is on the line each and every working day. Dependence on technology is not limited to photography.

 

I'm glad someone else said what I was thinking. I too am an amateur photographer but a professional at something else that is highly dependent on specialized equipment (i.e. not just a computer and a blackberry). If it "goes down" even if I can get a loaner overnighted to me, it doesn't help with what I'm doing today, right now. My work isn't life-or-death but as far as my clients are concerned it seems like it so I have backups for everything.

 

OTOH when I spend multiple thousands on a vacation, amateur or not, I don't want to be stuck with a paperweight instead of a camera. That too means backup(s). Formerly, a second (or even 3rd) M body was a viable option. With the cost of the digital M's, it no longer is. Although today a second M8 is more affordable nowadays with plenty of used ones around, it's still well over $2K. The advantage to eg Canon is that a cheap backup to eg a 5D or 1Ds is not a bank-breaker. In fact most places in the 1st world I can comfortably go with just my main camera because I could always buy a Rebel/KISS locally if something happened, they're so ubiquitous.

[zlatkob]

RickLeica, I didn't claim to be an uber athlete and I didn't take anything out of context. You can dismiss my analogy, but I think the point is pretty self-evident. You're making bicycling with family into a bad thing; I described it as a great thing to do. Bicycles are everywhere, just as cameras are everywhere. They can be used for many purposes and by many people very, very easily. But there are some important differences between using a tool for your livelihood and using it for your pleasure.

 

While few if any pro photographers are comparable to top athletes, it is a fact that pro photographers compete with each other for business every day and, sometimes, with everyone else around who has a camera. And their survival depends on some degree of success. That gives one a different perspective on the tools involved; it has to.

 

Several people have commented about having backup, which is obviously correct but understates the point. If key parts of your gear are out for repair, and you're left with only your backup, then you have no backup. So, regardless of which brand one chooses, a pro needs several layers of backup to deal with all sorts of issue, from malfunctions to accidents to theft.

[chrism]

Dear Pros,

Without us amateurs buying up the majority of Leicas made, there wouldn't be a Leica Camera AG anymore. (I'd add a smiley to obviate any unintended offense, but the thought is too true and sad to desecrate with a smiley!)

 

Chris

[likalar]

I was a full-time working pro from 1971 untill 3 years ago. Things break. When I used ANY camera, there was always at least two spares close by. In the 70's Nikon Fs and Hasselblad were the greatest, but broke anyway. Nikon had a pro service 10 minutes from us (sadly, long gone now), with loaners available immediately. I always owned 2 current Fs, and at least 1 non-current body. Hasselblads were solid performers, too. Unfortunately, when they jammed, the lens was jammed with it, and could not be removed. So we had spare bodies AND spare basic lenses. I always owned at least 3 bodies, but knew that Ken at Cudabac repair could do a separation while we waited (sadly, he's long gone, too). Or Peter, the local Hass. rep, would bring a loaner in an hour or two. I stupidly traded/upgraded my medium format gear to the new Hassy 2000 FC and then FCW bodies with foil shutters. Big mistake, though the new lenses were amazing! The bodies (shutters) broke constantly, so I eventually owned 4 of them. One actually became a pencil holder. Frustrated, I returned to classic Hasselblads with in-lens shutters. That meant 3 new bodies, all new glass; the 553s were excellent, but not perfect, so backup bodies were always on hand. Meanwhile, for 35mm gear, I switched to Canon and the new EOS auto focus cameras and lenses, then back, after a couple years, to Nikon's new F4 and new auto focus system. No matter what, at least 3 bodies was the rule. For kicks, I added a Mamiya 6x7 RZ system, buying only 2 bodies. I loved this camera and the super sharp lenses, but luckily kept the Hasselblad stuff for backup.

All the cameras, when active, were used respectfully and professionally. Any given body would make several hundred exposures per day, until it broke, at which time a spare was on the job in under 3 minutes. No client was ever left waiting for long.

My point? Every camera breaks. Expect it to. Now I shoot, as a non pro, with a digital M. If it ever breaks, I'll be sunk, and the day would be ruined, as my spare bodies (favorite older film Ms) are usually left at home. If I travel, I take the spare, and love knowing the lens can be removed from a broken body. I know I'll get some crap for this post; yes, it could have been much shorter to make the same point. Call me long winded, but I enjoyed remembering all the old, broken gear, no matter what the brand. ;-)

 

Larry in SF

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[therefromhere]

I think this thread is getting a bit to combative for me... everyone probably needs to grab their camera and go for a walk around the block...

 

Some time back in this thread, I posted the response earlier on service and a problem M8.2. While I doubt many will have read this far down the thread, here is a quick update: Leica sent me a nice email saying they agree to the need to replace my camera. So now we will work out logistics. There is progress.

[jaapv]

Dear Pros,

Without us amateurs buying up the majority of Leicas made, there wouldn't be a Leica Camera AG anymore. (I'd add a smiley to obviate any unintended offense, but the thought is too true and sad to desecrate with a smiley!)

 

Chris

Not only that, no camera maker would even develop high-end gear without the amateur market. Basically pros use the best amateur cameras, not the other way around.