Sony NEX 5 vs Leica x1

[jsrockit]

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There are 2 kinds of photographers: One is obsessed with technology, equipment and lab tests and one doesn't care much about all those and uses whatever he or she has that can do reasonably well for what he wants the most and concentrates on his or her photography instead. The former likes to hop around with different cameras whilst the latter prefers to save his or her time, energy and money for better photography.

 

Well, there are those that enjoy both. While I'm not a pixel peeper and I could care less about lab tests, I do like to make sure I have the best (most comfortable) equipment for my needs... which means I try different things here and there (buy and sell), even if I have my main equipment. I could use anything, but I'd rather use the best, most comfortable tool for my way of working.

 

I believe X1 measures quite well but it's surely not the best ever. But it does let me enjoy taking pictures more than any cameras I've ever used. Maybe NEX does as well. I just don't care. I'm satisfied with my X1.

 

I agree... the X1 is a comfortable camera to me. It was almost the perfect camera for me... but it isn't. No big deal, I haven't found the perfect camera yet. However, for me, Leicas come closest.

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[Guest badbob]

There are 2 kinds of photographers: One is obsessed with technology, equipment and lab tests and one doesn't care much about all those and uses whatever he or she has that can do reasonably well for what he wants the most and concentrates on his or her photography instead.

 

It's hard to believe that the second person doesn't care much about the equipment but is so dedicated, so committed, so concentrated on good photography. My observation is different - that anyone who's trying to do "really good" photography is *absolutely* concerned about their gear.

[Guest badbob]

....It was almost the perfect camera for me... but it isn't. No big deal, I haven't found the perfect camera yet. However, for me, Leicas come closest.

 

Of course the X1 isn't the perfect camera. Among other things, the perfect X1 would have a collapsible lens (as it does now) that can zoom from, say, 35 to 140 mm with image quality exactly the same as the current lens at any focal length in that range. I'm sure in fact that such a camera could be produced at a price of maybe $3000 to $4000 instead of $2000. Only one thing stands in the way - just convince the bean counters at Leica that they could sell enough of those to make it worth doing. Considering the number of complaints about the price of the $2000 version, I think I know the answer.

[davidhunternyc]

That's why Leica has an email address.... this forum is not the Leica compaint line. All actions have a consequence even if we don't like what happens and if you constantly complain about Leica's on a Leica forum you are going to tick people off.

 

Yes, people will be ticked off, but let's say that we let all opinions, whether it be positive or negative, be a part of this forum, wouldn't this be beneficial to all? In fact, I can argue that if we all supported barjohn's critiques, then wouldn't that send a signal to Leica that they should do a better job? In turn, if Leica improved their products then we would all benefit. I really dislike the cheap plastic vulcanite on the X1 and I believe that Leica should have chosen a better quality material for the wrap. If I kept on posting my disappointment, well then, maybe Leica would use leather for the X2 and we would all benefit from my complaints. I assure you, I started a thread on another forum, critiquing "the world's greatest headphone" and thus far, I have had 46,000 views. Oh, this headphone company listened. It has been my cross to bare and it is quite a scandal indeed.

[Danielsan]

Of course the X1 isn't the perfect camera. Among other things, the perfect X1 would have a collapsible lens (as it does now) that can zoom from, say, 35 to 140 mm with image quality exactly the same as the current lens at any focal length in that range

no, please not a zoom Lens! no compromise in IQ, thats the most important thing for me, perfect X1 would be the same but with a focus wheel on the lens Just a Leica M Series in the size of the X1 with fixed lens

[eelekim]

It's hard to believe that the second person doesn't care much about the equipment but is so dedicated, so committed, so concentrated on good photography. My observation is different - that anyone who's trying to do "really good" photography is *absolutely* concerned about their gear.

 

Of course, they care. Just not as much. For example, I'm not aware of any great photographers following closely to the new stuff and changing their gear every now and then. Didn't the late great Jim Marshall shoot with his M's only? Daido Moriyama has been using Ricoh GR's for his works since 1990s.

 

It's much easier to be a slave of hardware and consumerism than a master of photographic techniques and expressiveness.

[Guest badbob]

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no, please not a zoom Lens! no compromise in IQ, thats the most important thing for me, perfect X1 would be the same but with a focus wheel on the lens Just a Leica M Series in the size of the X1 with fixed lens

 

I did say "same quality at every zoom setting". So you assumed that either such a thing would never be offered (probably correct), or if it was to be made, would be such an outrageous price for a compact camera that only 50 people in the world would probably buy it (also probably correct). At least we could state the conditions and see if anyone has a comment about whether such a camera could or would be made.

[Guest badbob]

Of course, they care. Just not as much. For example, I'm not aware of any great photographers following closely to the new stuff and changing their gear every now and then. Didn't the late great Jim Marshall shoot with his M's only? Daido Moriyama has been using Ricoh GR's for his works since 1990s.

 

It's much easier to be a slave of hardware and consumerism than a master of photographic techniques and expressiveness.

 

True of film cameras, because the "sensor" is automatically upgraded from time to time. Not so with digital.

[Dan States]

Well, I've been futzing around with my NEX3 and some Leica and Zeiss lenses on an adaptor and so far it's not what I expected...Could be we just need to wait for a proper RAW processor for the Sony files as so far files from Bibble and Iphoto look mushy even with a proper lens. At this point the X1 files have gobs more detail and clarity even compared to shots made with a Zeiss Planar. That tilt LCD is a dandy though!

[barjohn]

Dan,

 

I'm not sure what you are seeing but the images I am seeing from the Minolta CL 40/2 lens are very sharp. I downloaded the samples from Steve Huffs comparison and did a side by side comparison in Bibble 5 Pro of the three JPGs at 100% which I posted with his permission on GetDPI (NEX with kit lens) and it becomes pretty obvious that both the X1 and EPL are over sharpening their JPGs and using high saturation as well. With a very light amount of sharpening and saturation increase the NEX image was clearly superior (this was the high ISO 3200 test).

 

While the Bibble 5 Pro raw processor is certainly not the equal of LR3 it isn't bad. I would like to see two raw files, one shot with the X1 and one from the NEX of the same subject, same lighting so I could compare for myself. You might also want to try RawDeveloper 1.8.10 as it can convert the RAW files.

[phancj]

Dan,

 

I'm not sure what you are seeing but the images I am seeing from the Minolta CL 40/2 lens are very sharp. I downloaded the samples from Steve Huffs comparison and did a side by side comparison in Bibble 5 Pro of the three JPGs at 100% which I posted with his permission on GetDPI (NEX with kit lens) and it becomes pretty obvious that both the X1 and EPL are over sharpening their JPGs and using high saturation as well. With a very light amount of sharpening and saturation increase the NEX image was clearly superior (this was the high ISO 3200 test).

 

While the Bibble 5 Pro raw processor is certainly not the equal of LR3 it isn't bad. I would like to see two raw files, one shot with the X1 and one from the NEX of the same subject, same lighting so I could compare for myself. You might also want to try RawDeveloper 1.8.10 as it can convert the RAW files.

 

Thats certainly inconsistent with my experience with the nex 5, and I had two sony sales rep with me when playing with it. They both unanimously conceded that the images from X1 is far superior to those from the Nex 5. They also wished they could shell out the high price to get the X1.

 

I would recommend that you post some great shots from your Nex for all of us to ogle and maybe then it will become relevant. Right now I am absolutely convinced that the X1 trumps the Nex 5 in image quality, but the Sony thrashes the X1 in all other aspects like gizmo whizbangs. At the nd of the day, to me and many others, image quality is the only factor. Why do you think people are willing to defend a camera that is slow to AF, has a mediocre screen, etc etc??!! I am certainly not masochistic, I want excellent image quality in the smallest form factor out of the box. The nex 5 just dun cut it for me. Period. And I am not willing to fiddle with manual focus with good lenses and forgo AF. Its backward. With the X1 AF may be slow, but sufficient for me, but the NEx 5 cannot even AF, so no comparison either.

[phancj]

Most perplexing is some who have thousands of posts on a Leica site when they should be enjoying their Nex, canon, or whatever...??!!

 

I come to this site to learn from fellow users.

[barjohn]

While owning Leica equipment is not a criteria to post here, I have owned several now including the M8 and Leica lenses. I post because I want to see the Leica of old that actually produced a high quality product that represented the best engineering could produce in its time. So far, that hasn't been the Leica of today. Maybe it isn't possible. I really wanted to see a modern CL with the same level of craftsmanship that makes a CL still work 30 + years later.

 

However, as long as Leica enthusiasts are willing to accept less and pay more, Leica management is happy to take their money. From what I have read and can see, the only part of the X1 not cheaply made is the magnesium shell. The LCD is not close to today's standard in LCD technology. The camera's processor is also way behind and slow as molasses (read cheap). The lens barrel is plastic, the vulcanite covering appears to be of poor quality and even the glue is not very good. Knobs with poor detents seem to have become a trademark. The M8 also suffered from poor detents. The cheap plastic LCD cover is another area that shows cutting the cost was the main objective. Not building in an optical viewfinder is another cost cutter. All of these cost cutting moves in a $2K camera? Leica can't do any better than this? We all know they make excellent optics and by now they should have the formulas and know how well entrenched in their company. Even when cost was not a factor as in the S2 they cut corners on things like the LCD where they didn't have to. It seems to be a mind set of the current management. The M9 appears to be the M8 with the larger sensor but basically the same processor electronics (doubled) hence the slow electronic performance. At least in the case of the M9 one could argue that with the S2 a market failure the company had to do something quickly to stay alive and a few shortcuts to get something out the door was justifiable. The M10 will probably use the S2 electronics which were clearly not ready in time for an M9. I would bet that the X1 and GXR image processing section is an identical Sony unit with only minor software differences. They behave identically, slow AF, iris continually changing, JPG + RAW only option for RAW, etc. The only thing separating these two cameras are the back end processing, UI and lenses.

 

The bottom line is that until Leicaphiles demand better with their comments and their wallets Leica management won't change. I keep hoping for that change; however, if the rate that they produce firmware is any indication, I may kick the bucket before they do.

[davidhunternyc]

I own the X1 and like the camera very much. With that said, I think your comments, John, are stated with measurement and consideration. I have always believed that absolute criticality about a product (especially stating its weakness) is the only way that manufacturers of that product will listen and hopefully make improvements. Others may disagree but John's comments are the ones that may spur Leica into doing a better job. I have to agree with John about one issue for sure; the vulcanite on the X1 is cheap and has a hard plastic feel to it. Why oh why on a $2000 camera?

[phancj]

Quite frankly Leica is a tiny company with so limited resources trying to do big things. There is absolutely no way for them to compete with the likes of Nikon and Canon. It will and always will be a boutique firm producing limited quantity of exclusive products, a market in which the giant camera makers have absolutely no interest in.

 

Therefore, I think it is moot point to think that our rants in this site or any others will have a lot of impact coz Leica is so small the OEM subcontractors have no real interests in their tiny orders so probably will not pay attention to them either.

 

I know because I have produced some licensed flash drives and when I buy the nand flash chips the manufacturers slap such a heavy price on them that equals almost to the retail price at hypermarts. nevertheless, I am able to survive because my licensed drives are priced at a heavy premium, not because I like to but have to. At the end, things still works out because the drives i make are rare and sought after and they are different from the regular ones found everywhere.

 

So I am definitely clear on how Leica is trying to position themselves in a comfortable niche of producing the best lenses and trying to make cameras with the best IQ they can. But to expect them to have full control including the vulcanite skin, battery doors, etc, etc which they have limited control over is not being realistic. I would expect them to make top of the line lenses, and nothing else. of course they also always have the knack of designing really nice retro cameras which I like plus they do try to use good materials and have a good image processing engines, etc etc...but to think coz we pay so much more we should expect perfection is naive.

[eelekim]

phancj,

 

Your message makes more sense to me than any other recent X1-related posts. But as a consumer, we do want something better for less money. It's one of the main reasons for all the harsh criticisms. We can see extreme opposite sides already. Leica don't need to address all of them if they really care. I hope they can improve some with firmware and create an even better camera in the near future. Anyway, I'm more than happy with my X1. Any single improvement would be a bonus.

[phancj]

phancj,

 

Your message makes more sense to me than any other recent X1-related posts. But as a consumer, we do want something better for less money. It's one of the main reasons for all the harsh criticisms. We can see extreme opposite sides already. Leica don't need to address all of them if they really care. I hope they can improve some with firmware and create an even better camera in the near future. Anyway, I'm more than happy with my X1. Any single improvement would be a bonus.

 

haha thanks...I also would love an M9 for the price for the X1 but life's like that, we get what we pay for. I find the X1 more than its worth of my hard-earned money given its image quality. At the same time, I see some niche products like vertu phones that are really priced astronomically but offer no extra functions or make better calls other than better build quality. Even the M9 though expensive when placed with the nikon D3x and Canon top of the end series I think the pricing is comparable. In fact, to me, maybe not to everyone, I would think that the M9 given its image quality is actually a bargain. Too bad it doesnt have AF. I am hoping the rumored Evil leica fullframe will be released with AF this photokina, if indeed the rumor is true, I'm gonna jump on it and pass my wife the X1. If not, I will still be thinking if I want to forgo AF and get the M9. Decisions, decisions...one thing for sure, the X1 was very liberating for me being my first Leica and it left a lasting good impression of the brand.

[Ecaton]

Most perplexing is some who have thousands of posts on a Leica site when they should be enjoying their Nex, canon, or whatever...??!!

 

I come to this site to learn from fellow users.

 

+1

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[barjohn]

phancj,

 

Your lament about how one shouldn't expect top quality because Leica is a small company and can't control its vendors is pure nonsense. They can select their vendors and the quality they want to use irrespective of their size. If you want examples of small companies that produce high quality products and have to buy many of their components, look at the nearby Swiss watch industry. Small companies like Blanc Pain, Ulysse Nardin and many others are able to buy basic movements and hand craft them into extremely high quality and expensive time pieces. A stainless model will run about 2 to 4 times the price of an equivalent Seiko or other mass producer. Leica is charging the high prices, just not giving the same relative craftsmanship and value.

[mGEEx]

phancj,

 

Your lament about how one shouldn't expect top quality because Leica is a small company and can't control its vendors is pure nonsense. They can select their vendors and the quality they want to use irrespective of their size. If you want examples of small companies that produce high quality products and have to buy many of their components, look at the nearby Swiss watch industry. Small companies like Blanc Pain, Ulysse Nardin and many others are able to buy basic movements and hand craft them into extremely high quality and expensive time pieces. A stainless model will run about 2 to 4 times the price of an equivalent Seiko or other mass producer. Leica is charging the high prices, just not giving the same relative craftsmanship and value.

 

....blancpain is owned by the swatch group