Will the real audience for the S2 please stand-up...

[Googaliser]

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I have been toying with the S2 - but my biggest concern was Leica's business model / marketing strategy with respect to this new hybrid. Basically, has Solms got this one badly wrong ?

 

A product that seemingly targeted the medium format pro's - but one that the target audience seemed more than a little skeptical about - and in a financial climate that isn't exactly conducive to system changes - particularly marginal ones. So what's going on ?

 

Having recently moved to Hong Kong - I now have clarity on this question. China, is all about prestige - and there is no greater aspirational brand in photography than Leica. Ask the Chinese about a global recession - and they just shrug - life is good over here. So good apparently, that I witnessed a teenage girl buy an USD 80,000 mobile phone (Vertu) in the shop next to HK IFC's Leica shop. There are wall to wall Rolex shops in Hong Kong - its where the Chinese come at the weekend to load-up on tax free luxury goods. What's a $30K DSLR when your sprogs buy $80K phones ?

 

So in a nutshell - I believe the Hong Kong Leica shop could sell 1,000 S2's in a year alone. Not to mention a Beijing shop..... and come to think of it, India and Russia aren't doing too bad these days either. This is where millionaire/billionaire growth is really happenning at the moment - not the US and certainly not Europe.

 

I also believe that the DSLR format, the choice of USB over firewire and leading with non-CS lenses - are all pointers towards the *real* S2 audience.

 

The wealthy amateur is often still discerning though - and needs to be convinced that they have a pro-spec camera. That in my mind is one of the reasons Leica are pushing this camera so hard in the MF-pro category. Not because this is where the bulk of sales will come from - hell no - but because this is where the camera will earn the pro credibility - making it even more attractive to those who want the best (regardless of their abilities).

 

So I think Leica are a lot smarter than many give them credit for. They are monetising the value of the brand - but they are not doing this by going down-market. Indeed, they have probably created the best DSLR on the planet. Everyone's a winner....

 

Rgds

[mhoersch]

I'm not sure I can follow your reasoning:

 

The S2's target audience is the wealthy amateur in China and elsewhere, and that's why Leica is hard at work at the pro market, so the wealthy amateur thinks he gets a pro camera - which it obviously isn't? So, when the wrong people buy the S2 for the wrong reasons - that makes the S2 the best camera on the planet? Is that it?

 

Or could you make your point somewhat clearer?

[Googaliser]

The point was that in my view, the success of the S2 is not contingent on the pro market accepting it - but the high-end consumer market that want user friendly premium pro-gear. And there are a lot of consumers in China and other economies that aren't effectively bankrupt with a lot of money who love the Leica brand. Ergo - I believe it will be a success.

 

Rgds

[glenerrolrd]

I'm not sure I can follow your reasoning:

 

The S2's target audience is the wealthy amateur in China and elsewhere, and that's why Leica is hard at work at the pro market, so the wealthy amateur thinks he gets a pro camera - which it obviously isn't? So, when the wrong people buy the S2 for the wrong reasons - that makes the S2 the best camera on the planet? Is that it?

 

Or could you make your point somewhat clearer?

 

His logic is good. Wealthy amateurs want to emulate successful professionals. They buy the golf clubs that the pros use (as an example). HCB used a Leica for street photography so I want a Leica. Porsche wins LeMans so I want a Porsche.

 

The market for professional photographers is shrinking. Their business isn t good and the forecast isn t good either. Most don t have the money to buy the best and the quality available at lower costs is so good they don t need the best.

 

The market at the high $$$ end is still good. Look at the demand for $7K M9 s and $4-6K M lenses . The wealth factor in asia is growing more rapidly than the established Leica markets of USA,Europe and Japan and the bias toward luxury items is higher in asia.

 

Buyer values for a wealthy amateur are different than a pro. One day service turnaround? Ever try to get a Rolex serviced ? Availability of a full range of lenses ? Proprietary software?

 

So the OTP is just pointing out that all the discussion about "inadequate for a working pro" maybe more of an image issue than a real financial problem.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I have been toying with the S2 - but my biggest concern was Leica's business model / marketing strategy with respect to this new hybrid. Basically, has Solms got this one badly wrong ?

 

A product that seemingly targeted the medium format pro's - but one that the target audience seemed more than a little skeptical about - and in a financial climate that isn't exactly conducive to system changes - particularly marginal ones. So what's going on ?

 

Having recently moved to Hong Kong - I now have clarity on this question. China, is all about prestige - and there is no greater aspirational brand in photography than Leica. Ask the Chinese about a global recession - and they just shrug - life is good over here. So good apparently, that I witnessed a teenage girl buy an USD 80,000 mobile phone (Vertu) in the shop next to HK IFC's Leica shop. There are wall to wall Rolex shops in Hong Kong - its where the Chinese come at the weekend to load-up on tax free luxury goods. What's a $30K DSLR when your sprogs buy $80K phones ?

 

So in a nutshell - I believe the Hong Kong Leica shop could sell 1,000 S2's in a year alone. Not to mention a Beijing shop..... and come to think of it, India and Russia aren't doing too bad these days either. This is where millionaire/billionaire growth is really happenning at the moment - not the US and certainly not Europe.

 

I also believe that the DSLR format, the choice of USB over firewire and leading with non-CS lenses - are all pointers towards the *real* S2 audience.

 

The wealthy amateur is often still discerning though - and needs to be convinced that they have a pro-spec camera. That in my mind is one of the reasons Leica are pushing this camera so hard in the MF-pro category. Not because this is where the bulk of sales will come from - hell no - but because this is where the camera will earn the pro credibility - making it even more attractive to those who want the best (regardless of their abilities).

 

So I think Leica are a lot smarter than many give them credit for. They are monetising the value of the brand - but they are not doing this by going down-market. Indeed, they have probably created the best DSLR on the planet. Everyone's a winner....

 

Rgds

 

Problem is it is not really getting Pro credibility to begin with. Too many holes as Roger points out or maybe better said Pro's still need a another system to compensate for those holes. As it is today no way would I switch to the S2 from my Phase system even if it was FREE. Hassy and Phase are systems and not many folks consider the S2 a complete system yet.

[andybarton]

_I_ am the real audience for an S2. I would love to be able to give up work and head off into the hills or somewhere exotic on an extended trip taking fabulous photographs. But, life ain't like that.

 

One of the problems is that this audience doesn't have thirty grand sitting around waiting to be spent on something that will satisfy a whim. And another is that I have a mortgage to pay and all the other little irritations of normal life.

 

But, there are, as the OP said, plenty of people around the world who don't have such constraints on their spending habits. And good luck to them.

[pgk]

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the quality available at lower costs is so good they don t need the best

Is one of the most common sense remarks I've seen for a long time. In all honesty, whilst there are undoubtedly some photographers who do actually NEED the quality available from the very best cameras out there, they are probably, much like 5"x4" or 10"x8" film pro photographers, very much in the minority. In the last 20 years I have been a full-time pro photographer and I have never lost a job or an image sale due to technical problems with the offered imagery - mostly on 35mm, some on 645 and very rarely indeed on larger formats. I suspect that I am not untypical of the majority of photographers and I do know other pros who simply no longer need MF style cameras because high MPixel (35mm type) dSLRs are now so good.

 

The S2 and its rivals are at the top of an increasingly wide based camera pyramid IMHO and Leica may well need to establish the S2 as a camera with pro credentials in order to sell it into a status conscious high end market. I'm very tempted to fully agree with the OP. Perhaps the 'traditional' market is changing.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

_I_ am the real audience for an S2. I would love to be able to give up work and head off into the hills or somewhere exotic on an extended trip taking fabulous photographs. But, life ain't like that.

 

One of the problems is that this audience doesn't have thirty grand sitting around waiting to be spent on something that will satisfy a whim. And another is that I have a mortgage to pay and all the other little irritations of normal life.

 

But, there are, as the OP said, plenty of people around the world who don't have such constraints on their spending habits. And good luck to them.

 

Agreed good luck to them. I already threw my money at MF and that is enough. But I also did not come close to Leica's price tag. Many new good deals out there and many awesome used backs and systems on the market. Here is a scary thought I sold my M system to buy a MF system and I did not add any money per say to it. If I sold my MF system and bought a S2 system even in great times financially for the world i still would have to add about 15k to it. So for Leica's sake hope all the rich folks just keep buying and don't listen to me. ROTFLMAO

[JMacD]

Guy has his system. I don't blame him for not wanting an S2 even for free, because he would still have to spend many dollars to get the lenses.

 

The theory of "congnitive dissonance" applies big time to Guy. He wants the S2 but has invested so much in his current MF system that he can't afford to change. He can't rationalize the change, so he gets some valid "sour grapes" over the S2. Not knocking that, I would be the same if I had bought a MF system all decked out while waiting and waiting for the S2.

 

I suspect Leica lost many pro photographers in that situation.

 

If one is the very very high end pro photographer who's cost of equipment is not a large percentage of their net, they can add another system. I see their only delay in purchase being the lenses arrival. By the way, I am not that very high end pro. The S2 will be my only MF system. My Pentax 67 is put to rest.

 

Unlike Guy, I didn't buy a Phase system two years ago. In my business I could wait for the S2. And wait I did. I waited further for the lenses I wanted. Finally a half a year later, the lenses I wanted are coming in. I can stop doing photo merges to get the resolution I use for very large corporate art. This is not a luxury purchase for me, it will have a return on investment. And I did actually economize, the Phase 65+ was so much more dollars.

 

I don't care if 90% of the MF pros don't buy the system, because 10% will be enough to support growth of the system. And yes when the S4 arrives I hope to then have all the lenses I need. But I will have already earned back the cost of the system.

 

So I am in the audience for the S2. Standing up.

[glenerrolrd]

I can afford an S2 and would like to own one someday. (Thats called a qualified lead). Here is how I decide and why I think I will have one someday.

 

I have had every single Leica SL body since I bought a used Leica SL with the external meter . I loved my R4 and R4s bodies and shot 000s of Kodachrome slides with them and the Leica glass. I have a DMR and plenty of glass ..I wanted an R10 and would buy 2 of any body Leica makes that takes the R glass. I have several M9s . I don t make a cent from my photography . Reread the first paragraph. Do I qualify as a serious customer?

 

First handling and feel. When I picked up the S2 for the first time ....I knew it was a Leica . It was a little heavy but had a solid feel . The shape reminded me of my other SLs . Then I looked thru the viewfinder ...wow beautiful bright classic Leica . Then I fired the shutter ..outstanding damping great sound. (no krrrrrplunk) . It felt good. Easier to handle than my D3X which is as good as it gets in a DSLR.

 

Second Leica glass ..I don t need a test report or jpegs on forums to know the Leica glass will be great. Maybe with a few exceptions I have never had "bad" leica glass. The Leica design team says this is the best we have ever done. Good enough for me.

 

The weak link in IQ chain is the raw conversion ....the fall out with Phase One at the last minute lost any hope of a finely tuned raw conversion. I like the DMR color better and surely the S2 can do better . This is the issue that bothers me .

 

Also it doesn t seem to have much value to be an early adopter.....with virtually no lenses available.

 

Thats how I think about the decision . Its quite a bit different from Guy s requirements. We both appreciate beautiful equipment that can produce high IQ but after that we have very different requirements and from this different perspectives.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

If you have the luxury to wait it out than it makes some sense. As you said having a whole system already it will not attract many Phase and Hassy shooters since there really is no gain in IQ at all it just does not add up to invest more when your sitting on a H40 , P40+ or anything up in this area and even the older 39 mpx Kodak sensors which still shine very well. The pain comes when buying the lenses which are really expensive and many Pro's need 4. That alone is over 20k. The market just sucks right now and seriously folks only very talented and established Pro's are going to survive this huge downturn. Many have already fell off the grid.

 

Just saw Rogers post and for a guy like him this makes some sense and I agree with his comments. Now don't get me started on the dedicated software issue but totally agree Roger . He also has a lot invested today in Leica and if Roger did some selling of gear it would come very close to not putting out to much pocket money. I did this selling my M gear. For him and i know him well and not a weekend warrior type. Roger is very dedicated to photography and a great eye as well than buying a S2 makes a lot of sense. But his points on not enough lenses yet resonates down the line or up the line to guys like me. As I said many many times this system needs to age and it will get there. I'm confident if Leica does not go broke with it than it will mature into a very nice system.

[gpleica]

I, too, think Roger has a great point. Leica knows it has a superb brand name, the finest glass in the business, and a history of photographers that used their equipment to literally change the way we see the world. Like Roger, I travel the world. As I head the delegation for the U.S. for several ISO standards that are always in a state of revision, I criss-cross the planet and have the opportunity to see other cultures and make photographs.

 

In any case, I see the same thing as Roger. The easily expendable wealth in this world is centered in China at the moment, and in some Middle Eastern countries (it used to be Dubai but less so now). And these people put an incredible value on having the absolute best. The Leica S2 is a high priced incredible camera that makes my M9 look like an Kodak Instamatic by comparison. And that's what they want. The very best. So in short, Leica may have created the ultimate camera status symbol in the S2. The clever thought that Roger has put forth here is that the S2 may never have been meant for the professional market - the marketing literature and push for professional acceptance may only have been for the purpose of setting the stage, creating the demand, for wealthy people who want the ultimate status symbol to purchase this camera (and its lenses as they are slowly released). Roger is right, in that this is really NOT a bad marketing strategy. There are tens of thousands of people who want "the best" and the S2 is certainly more like an ordinary DSLR than a Hassy or a Phase system - and a lot less intimidating because it looks and feels like a DSLR.

 

Also, like Roger, I could buy this camera tomorrow if I wanted to. I've got the income. So it's not out of jealousy or envy that I write this. Right now the M9 with a couple of choice lenses is all I need and my print size is less than 17x25" so the S2's capabilities are not needed...and the added weight of lugging this camera and a couple lenses around the world is significantly greater than the comparable M9 setup. But consider the S2 a "point-and-shoot" for those who want "the best" and you have another ball game in the camera industry. Go Leica! I hope it's a home run for them.

 

Geoffrey

Milford, PA

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I agree on some points there but is it really the best is the question of the day. Let's put it another way it appears to be the best and hang on that word appears for a second. Now that is the marketing legend behind Leica but it is not always the reality.

[glenerrolrd]

my comments weren t meant to imply that the market is all status seeking . Serious photographers look at what pros are using as well. I use M9 s because they are near perfect for the type of street and travel photography I enjoy. They are better for the application because of their smaller form and rangefinder focusing. My friends that are professional PJ all envy the M9 but say its too expensive as a working tool for them.

 

 

 

IMHO the serious amateur is where the market is for high end photographic equipment . The professional market is shrinking rapidly and will not support the significant cost of digital MF for anything but the expensive photo shoots.

 

So my comments were based on "whats important to the real customer"....which I hypothetically said might be me. Feel and ergonomics are really important. I enjoy cameras that have a precision feel. Metal verse plastic. A precision sound and damping of the shutter/mirror . Big bright and clear viewfinder. Size,weight and handling. Availability of great lenses . Good high ISO performance .

 

 

You can thrash the S2 as the perfect camera for a working professional and it pales compared to hasselblad or phase for a lot of commercial applications. But I never thought this was the real market (there will be exceptions). I think the real market will come from the same type of photographers that are making the M9 a success. Leica isn t having any trouble selling $10K plus Noctiluxes .

 

I hope the S2 doesn t become so expensive that its not practical to really use like some fine automobiles.

[LeicaS2]

Until I see some photos of wealthy Chinese photographers with a S2 I will ignore the suggestion that the S2 is for them, versus the high end pro who appreciates that the camera produces great work and does not fail.

 

The S2 is not a good piece of camera jewelry compared to the M9 for three very good reasons.

One, it does not even say S2 on the camera! Even experienced photographers assume it is an R. If Leica wanted to sell the S2 to the camera jewelry crowd they would have put a big S2 on the camera. I am thinking of getting some nice press-on white letters so I can add a big S2 to all my cameras. Sort of the opposite of covering the name Leica with masking tape. Unfortunately, only .000000001 of the population know what an S2 might be.

 

Two, the camera does not look different enough from a normal DSLR. A Hassy would look strange enough and more complicated to be much better camera jewelry.

 

Three, jewelry should be smaller, like the M9. So as the "ultimate camera status symbol in the S2", they have to improve it. They have to make it look very different, and put a big S2 on the front of the camera, and make it the most expensive solution on the planet. A Phase P65+ comes to mind.

 

I think this thread is filled with people who are happy with their current cameras and trying to justify why the S2 is not for them. That is a version of what JMacD called "cognitive dissonance". Perhaps JMacD is Chinese?

 

Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Googaliser]

Until I see some photos of wealthy Chinese photographers with a S2 I will ignore the suggestion that the S2 is for them, versus the high end pro who appreciates that the camera produces great work and does not fail.

 

The S2 is not a good piece of camera jewelry compared to the M9 for three very good reasons.

One, it does not even say S2 on the camera! Even experienced photographers assume it is an R. If Leica wanted to sell the S2 to the camera jewelry crowd they would have put a big S2 on the camera. I am thinking of getting some nice press-on white letters so I can add a big S2 to all my cameras. Sort of the opposite of covering the name Leica with masking tape. Unfortunately, only .000000001 of the population know what an S2 might be.

 

Two, the camera does not look different enough from a normal DSLR. A Hassy would look strange enough and more complicated to be much better camera jewelry.

 

Three, jewelry should be smaller, like the M9. So as the "ultimate camera status symbol in the S2", they have to improve it. They have to make it look very different, and put a big S2 on the front of the camera, and make it the most expensive solution on the planet. A Phase P65+ comes to mind.

 

I think this thread is filled with people who are happy with their current cameras and trying to justify why the S2 is not for them. That is a version of what JMacD called "cognitive dissonance". Perhaps JMacD is Chinese?

 

Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Well, I started the thread and rather than justify why not to buy one, I have pretty much satisfied myself that the S2 probably isn't going to bankrupt Leica and is therefore bordering on being a good idea.

 

I also don't recall seeing 'Veyron' on a Bugatti in large type either - and racing drivers don't tend to buy it them.

 

Perhaps you are the one with the label fetish and not the Chinese Mr LeicaS2 !

[jplomley]

I'm just back from 12 days in Olympic National Park, 10 of those days dealing with adverse weather conditions. I focussed mainly on the Queets, Quinault, and Hoh rainforests, in addition to Sol Duc. A few visits as well to the second and fourth beaches. I took my Arca Swiss 4x5 as well as the S2 with 35/70/180 mm lenses. I was only able to use my view camera for three days out of the entire trip due to the weather, which included driving rain, hail storms, and oftentimes rapidly changing light and wind conditions. The S2 rescued the trip, allowing me to capture this unique landscape despite mother nature turning nasty. Had I only taken the 4x5, I would have come away frustrated. Despite the persistantly damp conditions, the S2 functioned flawlessly; I can vouch that this camera and associated lenses are seriously weather sealed. For me, the S2 is a wonderful compliment to my 4x5 system for fine art landscape applications, and really comes into its own when one needs to capture the light quickly or work in adverse conditions. Once tilt/shift lenses become available, this should increase its appeal for landscape applications. I might add that it was beneficial to once again work effortlessly with moderate telephoto lenses for distillation and compression of landscape elements. While I use a 450mm lens for the 4x5, this requires a bellows change and an extension to 450mm (for infinity focus). Neither of these conditions are particularly amenable to working along the wind driven coastal beaches nor the continuously dripping rainforests.

[Vladimir Sadov]

To bring the obvious point, S2 is NOT the top pick for the "ultimate" point-and-shoot. This camera is too demanding in terms of the amount and quality of light that it needs to produce a good capture: not unlike any other MF camera.

With the 70mm lens, one needs to be over 1/180 or better yet over 1/250 handheld. Coupled with a relatively low ISO 320, which is the tops if you really want good IQ, this puts a limit of what you can "point and shoot".

 

I do not belive there is any MF system that could be classified as an "ultimate" point and shoot. This is just a different branch of evolution.

 

IMHO, something like Nikon D3s is a much better "universal" camera.

[Googaliser]

I'm just back from 12 days in Olympic National Park, 10 of those days dealing with adverse weather conditions. I focussed mainly on the Queets, Quinault, and Hoh rainforests, in addition to Sol Duc. A few visits as well to the second and fourth beaches. I took my Arca Swiss 4x5 as well as the S2 with 35/70/180 mm lenses. I was only able to use my view camera for three days out of the entire trip due to the weather, which included driving rain, hail storms, and oftentimes rapidly changing light and wind conditions. The S2 rescued the trip, allowing me to capture this unique landscape despite mother nature turning nasty. Had I only taken the 4x5, I would have come away frustrated. Despite the persistantly damp conditions, the S2 functioned flawlessly; I can vouch that this camera and associated lenses are seriously weather sealed. For me, the S2 is a wonderful compliment to my 4x5 system for fine art landscape applications, and really comes into its own when one needs to capture the light quickly or work in adverse conditions. Once tilt/shift lenses become available, this should increase its appeal for landscape applications. I might add that it was beneficial to once again work effortlessly with moderate telephoto lenses for distillation and compression of landscape elements. While I use a 450mm lens for the 4x5, this requires a bellows change and an extension to 450mm (for infinity focus). Neither of these conditions are particularly amenable to working along the wind driven coastal beaches nor the continuously dripping rainforests.

 

Really enjoyed your (&wife's) website Jeff - some wonderful images - landscapes particularly - great stuff

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Hallo,

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[kidigital]

In starting from scratch, I think that Leica had the foresight and the maneuverability to try to look at the marketplace for the next 5-10 years versus the next product cycle. IMHO they were correct in thinking that there was room for a "tweener" platform between 35mm and medium format. It was a bold move, but I believe that there is a a definite audience that will gravitate toward its dslr-like system handling and high-end lenses. I believe that it will ultimately find a loyal and passionate user base, as there is an audience (amateur and professional) that will gravitate toward a system that combines a high level of usability with large, detailed files.

 

Kurt