M9, last of the line?

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Much of the 'wish list' to drag Leica into the 21st century could be done without compromising the valuable traits of the M series. They could simply jump back into bed with Panasonic and supply lenses while Panasonic deal with the bi-annual upgrade to bodies. Leica could perhaps do their own badged body that may make it acceptable here, but of course it would lag two generations behind the Panasonic offerings.

 

But if Leica are going to introduce electronic gizmo's like AF, Live View, sensor cleaning, a decent metering system etc, they will be judged on how they compete and compare with other primarily electronic camera systems. They are in a position of luxury at the moment, they just say 'we are a niche market', and it works.

 

Steve

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[Fotofanatiker]

I So the M10 may well be designed around a new mount with a larger size and an electronic interface -and a new name!, making the M9 the apex of the M series. Of course, Leica being Leica, there would be an adapter for the old M mount. It would make all speculation about adding extra " features" to the M9 rather pointless.

 

Now if only the Sony NEX had a full frame sensor...

[stunsworth]

Leica could perhaps do their own badged body that may make it acceptable here, but of course it would lag two generations behind the Panasonic offerings.

 

Which of the recent Leica/Panasonic cameras have been two generations behind what Panasonic were offering? The D-Lux 3 and 4 were both based on then current Panasonic cameras.

[luigi bertolotti]

Now if only the Sony NEX had a full frame sensor...

... I'd buy it at once , supposed the price is linearly dependent on sensor size... ... but it won't be a Leica...:a FF Leica must have a finder...

[diogenis]

Oh and finally, kill that USB interface in favor of a cool RJ45 networked disk connection, which will never require any mess with drivers, it will show as a networked disk in your desktop and you can do whatever you want with it, even make it a wireless networked disk.

[jonoslack]

Now if only the Sony NEX had a full frame sensor...

 

... I'd buy it at once , supposed the price is linearly dependent on sensor size... ... but it won't be a Leica...:a FF Leica must have a finder...

 

Sheesh - and have to go into a menu every time you wanted to change ANY settings?

[JMacD]

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Wilson posted all that I want next in an M10.

Those who want autofocus go to the X camera as it evolves.

[Jeff S]

Porsche was able to adapt the 911 to make use of all kinds of different technology and features over the years. I don't think you could have squeezed the Nikon D3X technology into a Nikon F even without AF..

 

I hold to my analogy, the main point being that the 911 still essentially exists. The line didn't end as Jaap suggests might happen with the M.

 

There are plenty of things that can be tweaked for years and years, some of which are noted in the comments following yours. Porsche also played with cosmetic changes on 911s over the years, and Leica can do the same. Heck, an M9(.2) could include some things that even an M8.2 has, e.g., sapphire screen, whether as standard or as an option.

 

Jeff

[AlanG]

One way to look at the direction the industry might go is to consider that the digital camera body-sensor is primarily the "film." As these "film" performance characteristics evolve and hopefully diversify (B&W anyone?) we'll buy the new and improved versions, as long as they are compatible with our lens collections, which are the more stable part of our overall investment.

 

Sony appears to want to be a "film" maker that will be able to be used with any number of different lens lines. Given the importance of economies of scale in electronics manufacturing, their strategy makes a lot of sense. Even if the M-mount lenses are too small a factor to matter in terms of economies of scale, if it's a cheap add-on capability, it'll bring them lots of prestige if Leica owners use their products.

 

Take a look at the recent Sone "EVIL" camera body -- http://a.img-dpreview.com/previews/SonyNEX5/Images/EMount-nolens.jpg. It is, in some respects, similar to some of the film holders that have been used with view cameras for some time. In addition to its adequate E-mount throat size (46.1 v. 44 for the M-mount), the flange to "film" distance of 18 mm (versus 27.8 for the M-mount) (see Lens mount - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), allows lots of room for adapters. A wider throat and thinner body would be even better, but the direction is significant. There is lots of room for adapters to fit other lens types, and these adapters may not just be passive pieces of metal.

 

One of the more interesting questions is whether there is even room for some innovative company to make an adapter that would allow tilt with Leica lenses. I easily made a tilting mount that allowed me to use all my Rollei SL66 lenses on my Canon 35 mm body (the old FD mount). (The 150 Zeiss Sonnar could hit 100 lp/mm center and (one) edge wide open on the Canon with the adapter.) With enough room, there are all sorts of things that an adapter mount might be able to do.

 

Even a "dumb" adapter with a (full frame please) high speed CMOS EVIL with focus detection could be a very significant addition to our "film" options.

 

In the past, would we have ever bought a camera that locked us into only one film?

 

Paul

PaulRoark.com -- Paul Roark's Photographic Home

 

These are excellent points and while camera manufacturers usually want to lock you in to a system to sell lenses, the newer smaller bodies open the door for third parties to invent all kinds of lens adapters.

 

A company such as Sigma that knows the ins and outs of these lens mounts could come out with a full frame EVIL system that via adapters can use Canon, Nikon, Sony, Leica R and M and just about any other lens they want. This body would have a huge market from day one and would be unique. But perhaps APS is the larger target market.

 

If you don't mind manual aperture, I'm sure companies such as Zoerk will be able to set us up with tilt shift adapters for the Sony and M4/3rds. Wide angle tilt/shift lenses will be a bit more of a problem unless the sensor is full frame. A lot of DSLR filmmakers use Lensbabies.

 

In any case, I can see why Leica might have trouble adapting to this concept as other companies are much more nimble.

[adli]

Killing the M-mount classic rangefinder line would be suicide from a business perspective. Leicas M-series fills a niche. Ending this line to start a new concept will jeopardize Leicas customer base. In stead of staying loyal to the brand, Leica will find a great deal of their customers comparing the new concept to a lot of alternatives. Many of those who buys the M9 already have a decent lens line-up, new concept with new mount would mean a substantial investment in lenses to be able to reap the benefits of the new concept. My guess is that Leica is not willing to risk this, so there will be an M10 in a few years, and probably an M11 some years after.

 

An other point to consider is to look at the M-history. M3 can also be seen as close to perfection for analog Ms, in the same you you consider M9 for digital cameras. Still Leica came up with M4, M5, M6, M7.... None of them increased the image quality of the pictures taken with them, even though they all brought some kind of improvement (even though my M3 has the best finder I have tried).

 

I was philosophizing a bit about the M9, and came up with the following. Leica is primarily an optical company, the core business is lenses. the current M lineup is close to perfection. Maybe an 28 Summilux, but after that? Precious little room for improvement. The only thing that could open new vistas for Peter Karbe would be a new lens mount. Larger, to allow more spectacular designs, and electronic coupling, to allow digital correction. In that field, we have not even seen the begining and the possibilities are endless. So the M10 may well be designed around a new mount with a larger size and an electronic interface -and a new name!, making the M9 the apex of the M series. Of course, Leica being Leica, there would be an adapter for the old M mount. It would make all speculation about adding extra " features" to the M9 rather pointless.

[HaraldL]

The design of the current new M-lenses shows increasing optical performance and lack of autofocus. So the M10 won't have autofocus as we know it from current DSLR's. For economic reasons the lenses will have to be sold for several years. So the M10 will be an evolution, not revolution. I think the M-line will transform in the same way as the newly introduced lenses, in an almost perfect optical tool (priceless) instead of a mini-pc with lots of electronic add-ons like video, 3d, exposuring programs etc. And I'm sure the M-line won't join the 'who has the biggest' (zoomlens, batterygrip, flash(!)) contest.

 

Harald

[AlanG]

c. And I'm sure the M-line won't join the 'who has the biggest' (zoomlens, batterygrip, flash(!)) contest.

 

Harald

 

Who has the best and fastest lenses? Who has the smallest FF body? Leica competes in its own way and users choose what matters to them.

[richfx]

Provocative thread and great reading. Great idea, JAAPV.

Rich

[johnastovall]

I just hope Leica remembers M10 = M5 x 2. We don't need a repeat of the M5.

[zlatkob]

So the M10 may well be designed around a new mount with a larger size and an electronic interface -and a new name!, making the M9 the apex of the M series.

A new camera with a new mount and a new name wouldn't surprise me. I've commented before that no one should feel threatened by radical new visions of a small M-like camera, perhaps with autofocus, because it would be a new system, not a replacement of the M. New systems, like the S2 and X1 don't replace the M. Likewise, a new 35mm system wouldn't replace the M either.

 

That said, I don't see why the M9 would be the apex of the M series. As long as the company is healthy and interested buyers exist, I can see the M series being gradually revised for generations ... new materials, new sensors, improved interface, faster electronics, several stops more dynamic range, likely even new technologies. "Close to perfection" is only relative to a particular time.

[Shade]

Jaap, I agree with you somewhat...

 

But I feel there will be ONE final generation after the M9...

 

And I personally imagined that they will name it Mx (X = roman numeral for 10)...

 

There will be several refinements and improvements, just like an M8 jumping to an M9... we wouldn't see a larger sensor though, but perhaps with better noise and colour shifts performance and such...

 

We'll see..

[jonoslack]

I was philosophizing a bit about the M9, and came up with the following. Leica is primarily an optical company, the core business is lenses. the current M lineup is close to perfection. Maybe an 28 Summilux, but after that? Precious little room for improvement. The only thing that could open new vistas for Peter Karbe would be a new lens mount. Larger, to allow more spectacular designs, and electronic coupling, to allow digital correction.

Hmmm - isn't it called the S2 mount?

In that field, we have not even seen the begining and the possibilities are endless. So the M10 may well be designed around a new mount with a larger size and an electronic interface -and a new name!, making the M9 the apex of the M series. Of course, Leica being Leica, there would be an adapter for the old M mount. It would make all speculation about adding extra " features" to the M9 rather pointless.

I don't deny the possibility of the camera - but it won't be an M10 . . . it'll be something else. They would be crazy not to bring out an M10, the M9 is clearly a success, the fact that it's 'the smallest FF camera in the world' is enough: to change it into something larger would be madness. Like Porsche replacing the 911 with a 912 which has the engine in the front

[marknorton]

Since Jono brings up the 911, Porsche have struggled with the 911 in the face of competition such as the Nissan GT-R and Audi R8 V10. I have 911 blood coursing through my veins (997.2 turbo PDK if that means anything to you) but even I admit they are developing cars with one hand tied behind their backs.

 

So it is with the M. No one denies the benefits of the classic M format but Leica have resolutely refused to move the design on. There is surely room somewhere for an alternative platform to work with M lenses. Problem is, electronic design and firmware is not a core Leica expertise, not in the way designing and building no-compromise lenses is, so they need a partner.

 

[Please note my restraint in not posting the almost obligatory car picture at this point].

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[luigi bertolotti]

Porsches ? Let's give another look to a form of "platform evolution"....

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[tategoi]

I love the 1961 model, it has that Leica look.