Lens Choice

[rgp]

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Help wanted....

 

 

I shoot full frame DSLR, about to change to M9.

 

Mainly shoot 50mm and 85mm wide open (f1.4/1.8), but struggling to adjust to Leica prices.

 

Tempted by reviews of 50 & 75 Summarit, but will miss wide open.

 

Also shoot 16mm or 21mm, and as I usually stop down will I notice the difference with Ziess.

 

Bottom line is I want continuity across the lens range and similar look at all.

 

Anybody out there done exactly the same and got advice.

 

I shoot for a living.

 

Cheers

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[adan]

At the wide end, you may notice the difference between Zeiss and Leica because of the coding required by the M9 (which Zeiss can't support). I'll let Zeiss users speak to that in more detail, though.

 

Realistically, the entry level to Leica has always been the used market. The demand generated by the M9 has depleted that market somewhat (at least in the US - London may be better off).

 

For 16-21mm, if you shoot stopped down anyway, there is the Leica 16-18-21 Tri-Elmar f/4. Not cheap at around 2800-3000 pounds used - but you do get three focal lengths.

 

There are the Cosina/Voigtlander 12mm and 15mm prime lenses, but they have some imaging issues with the M9 sensor (the 12 doing somewhat better, it appears). F/4.5-5.6 - but you did say stopped down.

 

At 21-24mm - from the reports I've seen you pretty much have to bite the bullet and get a coded Leica lens. The C/V 21 f/4 and Zeiss 21 f/4.5 have trouble on the M9. Not sure about the Zeiss 21 f/2.8. I have a 30-year-old Leica 21 f/2.8, coded, that works pretty well. Still a slight color problem not yet sorted out.

 

At 50mm, there is the C/V 50 f/1.5 Nokton, which is a modern sharp ASPH design. There is also the Zeiss f/1.5 Sonnar, but it is designed to be a bit "dreamy" at wide apertures. A used Leica 50 f/1.4 pre-ASPH is perhaps 1000 pounds - even earlier f/1.5 Summarits should in the 400-600 range.

 

At around 85mm and f/1.8-1.4, you can get a used Leica 90 f/2 non-ASPH/APO for anywhere from 400-700 pounds, depending on model. The Leica coding is not important for longer lenses except for EXIF data.

 

Much pricier, but legendary (and still usually less than a new 90 f/2 APO) is the 75 f/1.4. Probably 1900 pounds +/-.

 

Zeiss makes a ZM 85 f/2 - but it is as costly as the Leica 90 f/2 APO.

 

Otherwise there are a host of 85 f/1.8 Nikon Nikkor and Canon/Serenar lenses from around 1960 out there - they do require a screw-mount to M adapter, but are the lenses that made Canon and Nikon's reputations and are mostly decent performers.

 

On the question of "continuity," I find the C/V and Leica lenses usually work well together, and the Zeisses are a bit different from either.

 

If I were seeking a lens kit to match your specs, I'd probably consider: C/V 12mm f/5.6, 50mm f/1.5 C/V Nokton, used Leica 90 f/2 pre-APO.

 

I'd splurge for a coded used Leica 21 f/2.8 ASPH - or the newish Leica 24 f/3.8 (although a used one may still be 1300 pounds, if you can find one) Or the Zeiss f/2.8 depending on other feedback you get.

 

Or (an oddball idea) a Nikon 20mm f/3.5 AIS with a Nikon-Leica adapter. It would require scale focusing (estimating subject distance and setting it on the lens' focus ring scale) but stopped down you'll have lots of DoF for that. And the SLR design of the Nikkor means the colored edge tints from superwides that require coding to fix are probably not an issue.

[DFV]

My first recommendation would be; take it easy...

 

If you struggle with Leica prices set yourself priorities. If your favorite lens is a 50 f1.4 do not settle for second best and then inevitably go for what you really want. Ultimately you will end up with what you really wanted and with the drag of having spent some serious money on the "sensible" choice.

 

My second recommendation would be to look in the secondhand market. Leica owners are (for the most part) very careful with their equipment. There are some almost new lenses out there that will save you some money with the added benefit that if you decide that lens is not for you and sell it you will not loose a lot of money. Actually Leica holds its value better than anything out there that I know of.

 

I particularly recommend the Summicron 90 APO-Asph.in your case. It is an awesome lens and it can be found at very interesting prices in practically new condition. The Summilux 50 will be more difficult due to the high demand they are rather difficult to find now. Even if it might be expensive it is a really an extraordinary lens.

 

For the wide angle I suggest the 18mm Elmar that will set you in between both focals so you would loose a lens but also an f-stop. The 21mm Elmarit (Asph.) is one of my favorite lenses I also had the Zeiss 21mm and it is in my opinion and from what I have been able to compare closer to the Elmar 21 (pre-Asph.). Anything bellow 21mm (other than the Zeiss 21mm) that is non-Leica I simply can't recommend on an M9. They will give problems and require extra steps when processing.

 

Goog luck anyway!

[rgp]

Andy, thank you so much for your reply, in about 30 minutes, you have given more knowledge that I could hope for.

 

I guess I am just looking to be persuaded, I'm only buying the M9 for its size, I really am buying Leica lenses for the look.

 

Before your info, the lens I was going to compromise on was the 21mm, but maybe not now.

[DFV]

Before your info, the lens I was going to compromise on was the 21mm, but maybe not now.

 

If you like 21mm I would really give the Elmar 21 Asph. (coded) a chance and forget the 18mm for now. As Adam recommends it is one of Leica's great lenses.

 

I do recommend that whatever you buy is either coded or can be upgraded to receive the coding (especially lenses wider than 35mm).

[microview]

 

I shoot for a living.

 

So aren't your lens costs tax deductible as capital items?

[jaapv]

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Nothing wrong with the Zeiss 21/2.8. It is very close to the Elmar 21 in quality.

[Jeff S]

Here's a different take. If you want a Leica lens for "the look," as you say, but haven't used an M (or a RF for that matter), then you might want to go slowly and try a used M8 or M8.2 with one lens and see how it goes. You may or may not like the RF experience, and even if you do, it might not substitute for your entire range of subject matter and style, in which case you may want to retain a DSLR.

 

On the other hand, if you try an M9 and don't get along well with it, you'll likely lose little by selling it. But, even still, I suggest hanging on to your DSLR. Especially since you apparently do this for a living.

 

Anyway, another opinion, of which there is no shortage here.

 

Jeff

[blimey]

i've gone dslr route to the rf route. i do find the rf route expensive for a hobby, yet alone someone who is doing this for a living, it can be substantially costly. hang on to the dslr for sure and try out rf. used market is the key to get very good deals with lens and m8.

 

my lens choice is 50mm lux asph... try it out and expand on your collection and then move to the m9.

 

check fredmiranda.com, rangefinderforum.com, and getdpi.com sales forum...

[menos I M6]

I still maintain a basic set with a Nikon D3 and select lenses.

When I sold half of the Nikon kit, to invest more into Leica lenses, I also sold a Nikon 85 f1.4 AF-D lens.

 

I did not like, to post process the CA out of high contrast scenes everytime and found stopping it down a bit most of the time, although it might well be one of Nikon's sharpest f1.4 lenses available.

 

Recently, I got a very nice copy of the Leica 90mm Summicron pre ASPH, mentioned here.

I have to comment, that this is an excellent lens with a really nice character and easy handling.

 

It is very sharp in the center from wide open on and gets softer to the edges.

It has a similar amount of CA in high contrast edges, as the Nikon 85 f1.4.

 

The interesting thing is, that I ended up with this much lighter, more compact lens with similar imaging for a lower price, I paid for my then new Nikon 85mm.

 

The pre ASPH is indeed a very interesting proposition, compared to the APO or even the 75 Lux.

 

I tried several APO 90mm and a 75 Lux also, when I bought the 90mm Summicron.

I liked the mechanical handling of my 90mm better, while I found the 75 Lux quite more difficult, to focus on the spot, as the 90 Cron (for more than double the price as well).

[Doc_P]

My long-time fave was the 1.4/85 Nikon (ca 1984)...

 

If M9 then NO compromise in lenses. Lens prices will remain stable, whereas Digital bodies have significant price drops over time!

 

The used market is really dry, but with some patience you will find used lenses ...

 

My recommendation: 2.0/75 'Cron ASPH used or new: a hell of a lens!

 

(If budget is really really tight: 2.8/28 ASPH rather "cheap" for the Leica domaine, at least for landscape you can stitch a few shots together and have top-notch quality, aka poor mans UWA solution...)

 

Zeiss ZM Distagon 4/18 using CornerFix with Daniels Profiles (@Daniel: Special thanx!), c.f. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/124794-link-collection-cornerfix-profiles.html

 

Have fun ! The M9 is really fascinating, addicting...

 

Best regards

Axel

[rgp]

Thanks for all your replies, you all clearly have years of experience and know which lenses, inc other manufacturers, are the best - old and new.

 

Coming to the system new, I just want to try to get it right, and doing so seems to point to Leica lenses.

 

Yes I am keeping DSLR, and Hasselblad with PhaseOne back, and Sinar, but maybe some of you think I'm tight !!! (microview)

[rgp]

Oh, and forgot to say, I did try M8 for a week, that is why I am back here pestering you for info.

[rgp]

could anyone advice, what difference i might notice in 50mm Lux and 50mm Cron shot at F2 ?

[tgray]

Honestly, there's not much of a difference at f/2 between the 50/1.4 ASPH and the 50/2 Summicron. The big decisions there are if you need f/1.4 and want to spend the money on the ASPH. The Summicron is probably a tiny bit sharper, and was more susceptible to flare for me, but for 99% of photos, you won't notice either.

 

I look at the 50/1.4 ASPH like this. You know how excuses are usually made for 50/1.4s? You need to stop it down to f/2 for a sharp photo, or you can't use it close it because it gets soft, or there's focus shift, or it flares, etc. None of those apply to this lens. Other lenses might be a tiny bit sharper at parts in the frame at a specific aperture, but all in all, it's the most consistent, sharpest, dependable 50mm lens I've used. Wide open, up close, far away, stopped down, into the light, whatever. I had the 50/2 and sold it to fund the ASPH and haven't regretted it a bit.

 

Reading your requirements, I think I'd recommend the following set of lenses:

 

- 90 Summicron, either APO or the version right before it, which is supposed to be outstanding

 

- OR 75 Summicron. Fantastic lens. A bit shorter than the 90, but focuses closer so you can get tighter framing for portraits if you want.

 

- a 50mm lens. There are a lot of good ones out there and it depends on what you want. The ASPH is an excellent choice, but expensive. It's also similar to the 75 Summicron so if you get that, I'd think about getting a different 50. I might skip the 50 Summicron - the Zeiss ZM 50/2 is as good and a lot cheaper. Lastly, you could look at getting the Zeiss 50/1.5. Not as sharp wide open as the others, but small and a unique look.

 

- For your wide lens, I might look at the Zeiss 18mm. As you may or may not know, some wides have a color problem on the M9 at the edges of the frame. It sounds like the Zeiss does not but I could be wrong on this. It's also just as sharp as the Leica equivalent and a lot cheaper, as well as letting you use filters easily. There are some nice options at 21mm, but 18mm splits 16-21 nicely.

 

Put your money into your most used lens. Spend less on the others. If you shoot a lot of 50, get the 50 ASPH, the 90 pre-APO, and the Zeiss 18mm. If you shoot a lot of 85-90, get either the 90 APO or the 75 Summicron and a cheaper 50.

[Jeff S]

could anyone advice, what difference i might notice in 50mm Lux and 50mm Cron shot at F2 ?

 

Next suggestion, now that you've given more background...subscribe to Welcome to ReidReviews You'll get tons of info, quickly, on this and hundreds of other questions you'll have.

 

Jeff

[doug_m]

Buy the 50 lux ASPH as your first lens.

[NZDavid]

If you shoot for a living, surely you can claim back capital expenditure -- which means it's worth investing in the best. Grin and bear it and pay an arm and a leg -- painful, but once you've got the tool you need it will stand you in good stead for many years. Another plus is that Leica lenses won't devalue.

 

I haven't got a M9, though I have been considering it. Zeiss 2.8/21 is a superb lens but coding may be an issue. The 2.8/24 Elmarit ASPH is also excellent, but may not be wide enough. If not a Leica Tri-Elmar (quite bulky looking and slow), consider the Leica Super Elmar 3.8/18 ASPH. Or any Leica 21s.

 

For a 50, the 2 Summicron or 1.4 Summilux is definitely the best choice. Even older 50s still compare very favorably. See: Summilux1.4/50 asph and Summicron 2/50mm. (Plus a lot more from Mr Putts on Leica and other optics.)

 

For longer lens, maybe a 90 2.8/Elmarit.

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[Xmas]

Help wanted....

 

 

I shoot full frame DSLR, about to change to M9.

 

Mainly shoot 50mm and 85mm wide open (f1.4/1.8), but struggling to adjust to Leica prices.

 

Tempted by reviews of 50 & 75 Summarit, but will miss wide open.

 

Also shoot 16mm or 21mm, and as I usually stop down will I notice the difference with Ziess.

 

Bottom line is I want continuity across the lens range and similar look at all.

 

Anybody out there done exactly the same and got advice.

 

I shoot for a living.

 

Cheers

Hi

 

You have not mentioned what sort of shooting.

 

If it is into Frenels and profiles, then only some of the very modern Leica lens wont have flare 'features'.

 

If it is door stepping then you may need to go B&W faster then 600 ISO, i.e. convert post.

 

In the long distance past pros used a Nikon F, motor drive + zoom, but slung a M + 28mm or 35mm pre-focused for close in melees, flying bricks etc..

 

Only the technology has changed.

 

Note I thought that the lens coding was simplified for the M9.

 

Noel

P.S. With a M9 you can try a lens in a photo shop or on photo outing, play with it in photo shop, etc. buy it later if you like The M9 files will need more post processing than a DSLRs, it is not designed for happy snappers. I use a LTM CV f/2.5 35mm most of the time, light small compact - and cheap, CV make 12mm, 15mm, ... the ZM lenses are also made by Cosina. All the lens prices seem to be climbing...

[adan]

"If it is into Frenels and profiles,..." - "If it is door stepping..."

 

Ummm - Noel, could you translate those terms? I might guess "Fre(s)nels" means "spotlights" and "profiles" is "silhouettes, backlit" by the context - but "door stepping" has me totally lost.

 

I might note that I limited my previous suggestions to budget lenses - based on the OP phrase "but struggling to adjust to Leica prices."

 

Personally I have 15, 21, 35, 75, 90, and 135 M lenses, all Leica but the 15 (used - and bought since 2004), and only one (the 75) cost more than $1000 US. The 15, 90 and 135 were in the $300-500 range.