The M10 or a new camera line? [Merged]

[mjh]

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EOSHD.com - Leica Summilux C cinema primes for the Panasonic AF100?

That’s not an official announcement, only rumours. Also note the question mark.

[stunsworth]

Also between those cameras and the S2 (or its successor). There is a reason why Canon is using the same DIGIC CPU in high-end DSLRs and compact digicams.

 

Electronics maybe, but not the sensor surely? <grin>

 

Isn't this the role that the Maestro chip is meant to have?

[mjh]

Electronics maybe, but not the sensor surely? <grin>

 

Isn't this the role that the Maestro chip is meant to have?

Yes, ideally the same CPU should work with a wide range of sensors. While one cannot standardise on a single sensor (or single size of sensor), one can and should standardise on a CPU.

 

I’m not sure that the M10 and a hypothetical FF EVIL camera from Leica would actually share the same sensor. A sensor for an M type of camera would have to be optimised for an extremely short flange distance, implying it would be decidedly sub-optimal for everything else. The chip might be the same, but filters and microlenses would not.

[markowich]

But when Sony stops selling sensors to Nikon where will they be? Leica will be eating their lunch soon.

 

And what does it matter what this camera is called? The CL was not called an M and it was pretty similar to one. And some M cameras had no rangefinders. I'd expect the M10 will be an "improved" version of an M9, not an AF EVIL camera. But should Leica make a full frame EVIL camera, it would figure that the same electronics and sensor from it would eventually be shared between the M and the EVIL cameras. This would make it cost effective to keep a rangefinder M model in the lineup for a long time.

 

the D3/D700 sensor comes (with high probability) from Rensesas (not from SONY!!), the D3s sensor is a nikon development. their entry and midrange series sensor do come from sony. nikon can do the sensor development but thought it was more economic to have sony do it....btw, the steppers sony uses to produce sensors do come from nikon. the japanese business world is very intricate and it is VERY unlikely that sony will not sell their sensors to nikon anymore. how they treat leica is entirely different though.

peter

[rosuna]

But when Sony stops selling sensors to Nikon where will they be? Leica will be eating their lunch soon.

 

 

Nikon gets many CMOS sensors from Renesas, using Nikon's designs. The only Nikon pro sensor from Sony seems to be that of the Nikon D3x, but it is uncertain if Sony still makes it for Nikon. The relationship between Nikon and Sony is more complex than a simple relationship of manufacturer/customer. For instance, Nikon makes steepers for Sony and maybe they do it for Renesas too...

[AlanG]

Nikon gets many CMOS sensors from Renesas, using Nikon's designs. The only Nikon pro sensor from Sony seems to be that of the Nikon D3x, but it is uncertain if Sony still makes it for Nikon. The relationship between Nikon and Sony is more complex than a simple relationship of manufacturer/customer. For instance, Nikon makes steepers for Sony and maybe they do it for Renesas too...

 

Hey, I was just responding to the guy who said that Leica shouldn't use a Sony sensor because Sony could "wake up" and stop selling sensors to them. I really don't care who sells sensors to whom, nor do I care where they come from. Besides, didn't the smiley face tip you off that I was being sarcastic?

 

All that matters is if Leica can get the sensors they need to make the cameras they want to make. And I don't think any of us knows what options they have today. If Leica can't get the sensors they need, they're designs will be limited.

 

I think a lot of people agree that it would be a good idea for Leica to make a full frame AF EVIL system as long as the M also keeps getting periodic updates. But at this point we can only wait and see what Leica actually produces.

[rosuna]

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Sorry...

[giordano]

That’s not an official announcement, only rumours. Also note the question mark.

 

There's some plausible detail in there, though the AF100 doesn't look as if it's meant to play with the big boys like Arri and Red.

 

BTW, the Summilux-C lenses announced so far are huge by Micro Four Thirds standards (the same general size as the 14-24, 24-70 or 70-200mm Nikkors but heavier than any of them). Does anyone know whether the bayonet is strong enough to cope?

[swamiji]

Summilux-C on a 4/3 body...at $22,000 per.... not likely.... For the price of 2 you can get an S2 and 3 lenses.

[nugat]

There's some plausible detail in there, though the AF100 doesn't look as if it's meant to play with the big boys like Arri and Red.

 

BTW, the Summilux-C lenses announced so far are huge by Micro Four Thirds standards (the same general size as the 14-24, 24-70 or 70-200mm Nikkors but heavier than any of them). Does anyone know whether the bayonet is strong enough to cope?

 

The weight of one summilux c lens is ca 2kg, the m43 mount is rated to 1kg.

Unless the panny videocam mount is strengthened.

[nugat]

Leica can get sensors from any Japanese (or Korean) company they want. They are foreigners, outsiders, not part of the Japanese keiretsu (conglomerate) culture.

Nikon and Canon are different keiretsu. Sony and Panasonic are actually outsiders to the keiretsu culture. They can do whatever they want unobliged by the group's interests. Their only interest is profit. Nikon can sleep safely on the D3x sensors.

Keiretsu:

Nikon+Tokyo-Mitsubishi UFJ Bank+Kirin beer+Mitsubishi cars (Mitsubishi keiretsu)

Canon+Mizuho (Fuji) Bank+Nissan+Sapporo beer (Fuyo keiretsu)

Olympus+Mazda+Sumitomo/Sakura/Mitsui bank (old Sumitomo keiretsu)

Fujifilm+Toyota+Asahi beer (old Mitsui keiretsu)

Pentax was DKB Bank+Fujitsu+Hitachi but after sale to Hoya is outside

Konica-Minolta and Kyocera (contax) were Sanwa keiretsu but after mergers KM ended up with Sony

 

PS.In fact the keiretsu system has been steadily falling apart in the last 10 years. Banks sitting in their centers fell and merged.

Renesas is a joint venture set up by Fuyo and Mitsubishi keiretsu (Canon and Nikon group respectively)

[percepts]

Should the M9 have used a digital viewfinder instead of a range finder and do you think the M10 will have a digital viewfinder a la Lumix or Olympus

[pascal_meheut]

I'm wondering: wouldn't it be you who missed a trick, not Leica?

[lars_bergquist]

No. The EV is not there yet. It is still much inferior to a good SLR finder. And if a screen you look at would actually be superior to a rangefinder in all situations, then there would have been no rangefinder cameras. Because reflex cameras have had screens to look at for ages -- though the image was optical, not electronic. And before that, was the view camera.

 

The RF camera offers a direct view of the subject. You are interacting directly with it, instead of sitting in the basement, looking at a screen, optical or electronic, on which an image of the subject is projected. Pay the small subscription to Reid Reviews and learn things. He is a professional user of both RF and modern DSLR cameras, and knows what each is for.

 

The old man from the Age of the Brilliant Finder

[cheewai_m6]

I'm wondering: wouldn't it be you who missed a trick, not Leica?

 

i think you got it right

 

leica limit the technology they put in cameras. not because they don't have it. no just the viewfinder, but a lot of other uesless functions too.

[Steve Ash]

Get thee behind me, Satan!

[nugat]

No. The EV is not there yet. It is still much inferior to a good SLR finder. And if a screen you look at would actually be superior to a rangefinder in all situations, then there would have been no rangefinder cameras. Because reflex cameras have had screens to look at for ages -- though the image was optical, not electronic. And before that, was the view camera.

 

The RF camera offers a direct view of the subject. You are interacting directly with it, instead of sitting in the basement, looking at a screen, optical or electronic, on which an image of the subject is projected. Pay the small subscription to Reid Reviews and learn things. He is a professional user of both RF and modern DSLR cameras, and knows what each is for.

 

The old man from the Age of the Brilliant Finder

 

Hmmm, obviuosly people who sit in the basement (or OB van or DOP tent) know nothing about it when they make movies or TV shows.

[stunsworth]

Should the M9 have used a digital viewfinder instead of a range finder...

 

No

 

...do you think the M10 will have a digital viewfinder a la Lumix or Olympus

 

No

[stunsworth]

Hmmm, obviuosly people who sit in the basement (or OB van or DOP tent) know nothing about it when they make movies or TV shows.

 

I wouldn't say they know nothing, but using an M is fundamentally different to using an SLR - with either an optical or electronic finder. This is an issue that has been covered again and again on this forum, and I can't help thinking that some of the people who want the rangefinder replaced with an EVF or similar would actually be happier with an SLR in the first place.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[jaapv]

Leica can get sensors from any Japanese (or Korean) company they want. They are foreigners, outsiders, not part of the Japanese keiretsu (conglomerate) culture.

Nikon and Canon are different keiretsu. Sony and Panasonic are actually outsiders to the keiretsu culture. They can do whatever they want unobliged by the group's interests. Their only interest is profit. Nikon can sleep safely on the D3x sensors.

Keiretsu:

Nikon+Tokyo-Mitsubishi UFJ Bank+Kirin beer+Mitsubishi cars (Mitsubishi keiretsu)

Canon+Mizuho (Fuji) Bank+Nissan+Sapporo beer (Fuyo keiretsu)

Olympus+Mazda+Sumitomo/Sakura/Mitsui bank (old Sumitomo keiretsu)

Fujifilm+Toyota+Asahi beer (old Mitsui keiretsu)

Pentax was DKB Bank+Fujitsu+Hitachi but after sale to Hoya is outside

Konica-Minolta and Kyocera (contax) were Sanwa keiretsu but after mergers KM ended up with Sony

 

PS.In fact the keiretsu system has been steadily falling apart in the last 10 years. Banks sitting in their centers fell and merged.

Renesas is a joint venture set up by Fuyo and Mitsubishi keiretsu (Canon and Nikon group respectively)

 

Interesting explanation - thank you. In fact, Mr. daniel mentioned that it is no easy for an outsider like Leica to get a commercial toehold in the Japanese industrial system. Still there is the Panasonic connection, Fujitsu makes the Maestro chip, there were Minolta and Kyocera connections in the past. Still, it seems that Kodak and Dalsa are the most obvious partners.