The M10 or a new camera line? [Merged]

[rosuna]

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Leica has already spoken: The R solution will be full-frame.

 

Leica has spoken before, and then changed his mind. Do you remember the R10 "announcement"?

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[jaapv]

Yes- the word R10 was never mentioned by Leica, but read into it by Internet posters. It was: the next reflex camera will be full-frame, or larger. Now doesn't that sound familiar? - think S2. And I recall the announcement that did use the term R10: it will not be - end of the R- line.

[rosuna]

Would not be an M any more for lack of rangefinder but i would not mind to get a clip-on EVF instead of optical external viewfinders.

 

It would be a M camera if the mount is the M bayonet and the lens-to-flange distance is that of the M system... Ok, you can keep the "M" name only for classical, MF, rangefinder cameras and lenses... and use another name for the EVF thing... but it is just a question of naming...

 

I think the priority for Leica should be

 

1) To develop a new "modern" system, affordable.

 

2) To keep as much compatibility with the R and M systems as possible.

 

Synergies is the key.

[rosuna]

And "I've heard from a trusted Leica source..." and "Why can't Leica make..." and enything that talks about ISO higher than 2500 ISO

 

I don't need ISO 32.000 but I would like to have a good file at ISO 1600. It is not only "noise" the problem... the problem is loss of dynamic range, color quality, resolution (detail and tones), etc. when you increase the ISO value. The M8/M9 sensors do not have a good response in this regard...

[rosuna]

Oh No ! Please, no.

 

I would see it more like an MD...

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The silver metal upper "helmet" is too large... it contains the viewfinder and rangefinder in the M cameras... Think on something similar to the X1 camera...

[rosuna]

 

2. I DO NOT WANT BLOATWARE THAT I HAVE TO PAY FOR AND WILL NEVER USE.

 

When you buy a M9 camera you are paying the development of the X1 and S2 cameras as well. Profit is a concept that makes sense only for the company as a whole. It may be profitable for a company to sustain a line of product with losses... it may contribute to the brand projection, client fidelity the R&D or whatever...

[rosuna]

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This video topic has been beaten to death here. See: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/120654-video-mode-future-m.html?highlight=M10+video. Most M users don't want it apparently. Count me out.

 

I don't want video recording... but I want live view... and the difference between the two features may be a question of software...

[rosuna]

A well set up rangefinder is still the most accurate system up to and including 90 mm (and quite acceptable for 135), Evil or no Evil. Electronics still have quite a lot of catching up to do.

 

It is not my experience. Contrast AF based on the sensor itself is very precise, but slow. The M8's rangefinder is a pain in the ass regarding focus accuracy, and the M9 camera seems to be the same. You cannot focus accurately long lenses wide-open at all distances, you cannot focus macrolenses, you cannot focus lenses with focus shift, and many other lenses also have problems (front focus, back focus, etc.).

[Guest BigSplash]

Sorry, but I cannot follow your logic.

 

The problem is, that you don't take into consideration, what has been written in posts, you claim refering to. Rather you're getting personal. This unfortunately destroys the culture of a forum and makes matter of fact discussions impossible. Please consider this.

 

I wished the forum would become more matter-of-factly. To many discussions go off course like this.

 

Rolu I agree with you completely and support your plea about getting personal.

 

Unfortunately Bill likes to be either aggressively personal, or childish.

 

He rarely manages to raise the tone of the debate and address the issues. The moderators tolerate this because apparently he is a really nice chap when you get to know him. I suggest you do as I do and simply ignore him.

It is not worth getting into a personal debate with him unless of course you feel bored and fancy rattling his cage. He actually knows a lot about Leica so be careful he bites when he thinks he knows something that you may not but fortunately that does not often happen so the risk is worth taking ...Good luck.

[andybarton]

 

He rarely manages to raise the tone of the debate and address the issues.

 

Most members here have their idiosyncrasies Frank. Moderators tolerate a lot of behaviour on this forum.

 

There is an "Ignore" function in your User Control Panel. Non-moderators can choose to ignore any member's posts that you wish.

[rosuna]

I remember (I may be wrong) claims about a new R digital, then about a larger than 24x36mm camera (which resulted to be the S2) and then about a "solution" for R cameras. I think the plan for a larger than 24x36mm AND a digital R (the two things) was on the table for a while (Leica justified the investment in the S2 saying it would spread on a broad range of products, including the new R).

[jaapv]

Yes- I was at the announcement for the R solution. - it would be full frame and not made - but marketed- by Leica. There was an implication that an EVF was being contemplated, but there were concerns about the quality thereof. Leica researched the possibility of an R10 from 2006 until 2008 and decided it was not viable economically.

[Guest BigSplash]

Bill you are a delight and the comments below are as usual a joy to read as it displays your grap of business

Let me say something about economics...

 

Leica is a small company. Canon is a large company. Agreed. Canon has a huge headcount in the middle of a recession, in a country that does not like layoffs yet is a listed company with responsibility towards its shareholders. Leica has Dr Kaufmann backing the business as he did in the middle of last year by injecting several Million €uros.

 

Leica has few product lines. Canon has many product lines. Agreed. Leica is more focussed and does not have diversions such as HP, Brother, Samsung, etc attacking their printer market, or Sony, JVC, Panasonic attacking their video camcoder market

 

Leica has little to invest in R&D. Canon has lots to invest in R&D. Agreed. Canon has to invest in a portfolio of printers, fax machines, video cameras etc etc in a very fast changing super aggressively priced market. The lower R&D budget of leica is a well focussed one towards a narrow niche. It is also one that benefits from a strong partnership program.

 

Leica has little ability to drive down supplier prices. Canon has considerable ability due to their size. Agreed and this is I believe an issue for Leica. The way forward is to increase the number of units per year by gradually lowering costs and increasing quality, and widening the niche that Leica wishes to serve.

However many people on this forum do not like to hear this as they love the old ways of doing things....hand built M cameras made by many technicians that are highly skilled.

They love for example that the M8 shutter unit, and the four things it interacts with have to be lovingly adjusted for each individual camera. they love that each sensor has to be indiviually aligned with individually selected shims at 3 points. This type of manufacture is not scaleable

At a marketing level they want to keep the M unchanged and costing £5K. They are not interested in widening the niche as you so eloquently put it "Have your EVIL camera with an M mount, by all means. Leave the rangefinder camera alone...." However the M camera is the cash cow that drives the R&D funding that goes towards S2, S2 lenses, X1 ..if the M business drops Leica will not be able to splsh the cash.

 

Leica subcontracts many components, eg sensors. Canon makes many components themselves, eg sensors. Agreed but subcontracting is the cornerstone of Japanese success story so is GOOD NEWS not BAD NEWS as I think you imply...

Most Japanese manufacturers subcontract key components...Sony do not make their TV screens for example.

Leica has gone one better beyond subcontracting they PARTNER very successfully....Kodak on sensors, Panasonic on complete cameras, Jenoptik on firmware, Projection Design for DLP projectors, Adobe, Fujitsu for Maestro ASIC chips etc This allows them to access IPR not just obtain components. Surely this is GOOD NEWS

 

 

 

Let me say something about programming. No. Please do if that is a subject that you understand...as the above is simply full of holes.

 

D'you know what? I honestly cannot be bothered. You have proved my point. You have no comprehension of what it would take to add the facilities you crave. Neither do I, but a) I don't underestimate the work involved and I don't dismiss it as minor.

 

Get real. Bill Bill ....getting personal again. Not good......

 

Please.

 

Have your EVIL camera with an M mount, by all means. Leave the rangefinder camera alone.

 

Simples.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[andybarton]

Frank, Bill. You have a PM.

 

[AlanG]

Last night I attende a meeting of my local chapter of Advertising Photographers of America. It was the second meeting in a row about the merging of video and still photography.

 

It featured Richard Harington who runs a video production copany and is the author of 25 books including his new book, "From Still to Motion" which deals with photographers using DSLRs for video. I believe he now does all of his video production work with DSLR cameras.

 

His site:

RHED Pixel : (703) 531-1325 : A Visual Communications Company

 

Basically the trend looks like we are moving to blur the distinction between still cameras and video cameras and also between still photographers and videographers. I don't know what we or the cameras will be called in the future but it will change. The need for video on the internet for content and advertising is the major driving force at play. There are various things separate from the camera that makes transitioning to video a major issue and challenge for commercial still photographers.

 

I don't know if any of this means much to Leica M shooters, but it is clear to me that the concept of manufacturing a dedicated "still" 35mm format camera is pretty antiquated whether you as a still shooter actually want to shoot videos or not. When you combine the demand for video with the simplicity and compact size of an EVIL system, you don't have to be a soothsayer to see the handwriting is on the wall. There is also the possibility of shutterless cameras before too long.

 

Whether Leica goes in this direction is not really going to be much of a factor to all but a handful of people, so in the larger picture, it doesn't matter much. But they'd be really shortsighted and seriously compromised as acompany if they don't go this route at some point.

 

Misc:

 

I tried the clip on EVF of the Olympus cameras and it was excellent - much better than the clip on for the Panasonic GF-1. So good EVFs are not a pipe dream.

 

The lack of autofocus on the M will not be a factor on video where you generally need to focus manually. And videos are shot stopped down, so an auto diaphram has no value either.

 

To be used wide open on video, the Noctilux would require gearing for a follow focus system. This probably could be done on it but might be a challenge on some of the other Leica lenses because there might not be enough room around the focus collar to add the gear.

[jaapv]

It is not my experience. Contrast AF based on the sensor itself is very precise, but slow. The M8's rangefinder is a pain in the ass regarding focus accuracy, and the M9 camera seems to be the same. You cannot focus accurately long lenses wide-open at all distances, you cannot focus macrolenses, you cannot focus lenses with focus shift, and many other lenses also have problems (front focus, back focus, etc.).

Not in my case.. I think I have posted enough images with long and fast lenses at all distances to prove I find it all rather effortless. I hardly dare say so - but might it not be the arrow but the Indian in this case - not all Indians manage to hit the Buffalo.

[rolu]

Rolu I agree with you completely and support your plea about getting personal.

 

Unfortunately Bill likes to be either aggressively personal, or childish.

 

He rarely manages to raise the tone of the debate and address the issues. The moderators tolerate this because apparently he is a really nice chap when you get to know him. I suggest you do as I do and simply ignore him.

It is not worth getting into a personal debate with him unless of course you feel bored and fancy rattling his cage. He actually knows a lot about Leica so be careful he bites when he thinks he knows something that you may not but fortunately that does not often happen so the risk is worth taking ...Good luck.

 

Thank you for comments and your explanation. Obviously in every situation there is something that can be learned. (;-))

[rolu]

Most members here have their idiosyncrasies Frank. Moderators tolerate a lot of behaviour on this forum.

 

There is an "Ignore" function in your User Control Panel. Non-moderators can choose to ignore any member's posts that you wish.

 

Thank you, I didn't know this and will find out. Very helpful advice.

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[SJP]

At the moment I am stongly considering the "ignore all" option, has that been implemented yet? Then I can dwell in isolation:D

[rolu]

At the moment I am stongly considering the "ignore all" option, has that been implemented yet? Then I can dwell in isolation:D

 

(;-))