The M10 or a new camera line? [Merged]

[rosuna]

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Stefan Daniel 2009 (Luminous Landscape interview on M9 launch)

Leica M9 Stephan Daniel Interview on Vimeo

 

This really is an excellent resource for any interested in hearing Leica Camera's current thinking and of course it's far more authoritative than anything we speculate here.

Interestingly, Stefan does suggest that CMOS with Live View IS possible (but not definite) for a future M.

 

Some text following may be slightly paraphrased.

 

"The question for us is really do we want to move in that sharkpool of the dSLR"

 

"A classic dSLR as you know it from Canon, Nikon, Sony, Olympus something is not going to happen from Leica"

 

"Our connection with Panasonic will concentrate on compact cameras. We will not launch a cooperation or own developed micro four thirds camera"

 

When asked about a collaboration with,Panasonic to produce an M mount 'digital CL'

"No, it is not an option... Because the M is our heart"

 

On function complexity:

"If you compare to the initial M8 we have added a lot of functions,... For my taste we are at the end of what we should do for the camera otherwise it will change its spirit. We have to be very careful not to overload it with everything that is possible. On features it is OK but we shouldn't do more".

 

 

.

 

That video interview is very interesting, and I have quoted and linked to it.

 

In my opinion those responses are correct. I fully agree with those appreciations. Leica needs product differentiation, and they have to control the technology they apply to their products.

[Jerry_R]

Maybe there will be some future Leica camera with more dSLR type features

Why on earth would Leica Camera try to compete in areas where many Japanese companies have very successful product ranges and huge resources behind them?

Looks you do not understand what is EVIL camera... Echh... Another person comparing it to dSLR in opposition to M?

Or I misinterpret your words?

 

The facts are:

- EVIL (including electronic viewfinder AND live view) has nothing to do with dSLR

- it is totall opposite idea behind!

- current implementation of live view in dSLR is very very poor, it is ages behing existing EVILs (which are not FF)

- in fact they are just enough to work on tripod when slow AF is enough

 

Furthermore:

- Japanese producers - Canon and Nikon - haven't even released EVIL camera

- market has been started by Olympus and Panasonic

- later entered Samsung

- later entered Sony

 

There is still very big and expected niche, for FF EVIL. It is big opportunity for Leica. There is ZERO competition from other producers still.

 

PS: Pls do not assign Live View or Electronic Viewfinder to dSLRs - it is exactly OPPOSITE. Many dSLR funs - say no to LV or EVF.

 

Good LV and EVF solutions can be found in dSLR competitors, not in dSLRs. That is point of my post.

 

Canon and Nikon so far - stand on side and observe. Looks they will be LAST on EVIL market.

[hoppyman]

Hi Jerry, yes I understand what an EVIL camera is.

I don't doubt that more of the big Japanese manufacturers will release EVIL cameras too. I'm sure that it is a market area that will expand a lot but I don't think that Leica Camera want to compete there. See the quotes from Stefan Daniel that I posted.

 

I will not be surprised if the next M has a CMOS sensor and Liveview, IF Leica Camera can source a sensor that will deliver better quality that we already get from the M9 and fit it into the current form factor and power it with only the current battery capacity.

 

I will bet my house that it will NOT have an EVF. No Rangefinder and optical finder means no M.

[Riley]

what you dont seem to understand is, you dont need to remove the RF top deck, the liveview/EVF combination can just accessorise the body via a plugin HDMI port for an EVF if that was desired. The differences in the current build are, having a sensor that is liveview capable, having the onboard software to decode it to video (some image previews do this anyway) and in the shuttering control for which.

 

Pretty well all SLRs now have liveview hence video shutter control, indeed it might be more difficult to obtain a shutter that isnt liveview/video capable.

 

as to resistance to 5DII liveview, im not sure i saw those sorts of 'emotions' displayed, but im confident a lot of them feel differently about it now, especially given the video context, for which an accessory EVF would be an improvement. I expect Olympus will do that first in the next SLR.

[AlanG]

I will not be surprised if the next M has a CMOS sensor and Liveview, IF Leica Camera can source a sensor that will deliver better quality that we already get from the M9 and fit it into the current form factor and power it with only the current battery capacity.

 

Live view or no live view, it seems to me that at minimum, future Ms will have higher resolution sensors with better high ISO capability, and more powerful image processors - assuming Leica can get these.

 

As pixel density increases to 40-50 megapixels, Leica may be the only company with a line of lenses that can make use of that resolution at larger apertures. To broaden this capability of high resolution by adding live view, a clip on EVF, or a whole new FF EVIL camera system using AF versions of its lenses, could place the M in a position where it has no competition. (Under some circumstances, one may need magnified live view to accurately focus these lenses wide open for 40+ megapixel sensors.)

[hoppyman]

Riley I do understand what you have in mind and are trying to say. A HDMI port is for a different function again though. That is not what the Olympus or Panasonic cameras have just below the hotshoe mount to connect their EVFs or external microphones.

Never mind, let's see what Leica Camera does in the future and you can say I told you so to the Forum if you are correct.

[AlanG]

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as to resistance to 5DII liveview, im not sure i saw those sorts of 'emotions' displayed, but im confident a lot of them feel differently about it now, especially given the video context, for which an accessory EVF would be an improvement. I expect Olympus will do that first in the next SLR.

 

The 5DII live view complaints might have been buried under the complaints about too high a resolution sensor and too good a screen on the back. And a lot of people were upset about the price reduction too.

[lct]

....I will not be surprised if the next M has a CMOS sensor and Liveview....I will bet my house that it will NOT have an EVF...

Ouch! If the next M has Live View it *will* have soon or late an accessory EVF. The M will remain an M i.e. a rangefinder of course but a clip-on EVF will make a usefull complement to current optical finders. My bet is not my house but a good bottle of Normandy cider if you like that.

[rosuna]

 

As pixel density increases to 40-50 megapixels, Leica may be the only company with a line of lenses that can make use of that resolution at larger apertures.

 

Small increases in spacial resolution lead to large increase in image size. Doublig the image size, from 24Mp to 48MP, resolution increases only a 50%.

[bill]

...just...

 

This little four letter word is the one that, more than anything else, devalues the technophile arguments and betrays the ignorance in what is involved.

 

"...it's just a port..."

"...it's just a button..."

"...it's just a minor coding change..."

 

...and so on.

 

Nothing is ever "...just..." - the M is a complex piece of coding, firmware and hardware crammed into a basic body shape which was never designed for what it is currently housing. Evolve, by all means, but never underestimate the work involved behind the word "...just...".

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[Riley]

like i said

 

"Pretty well all SLRs now have liveview hence video shutter control."

 

it 'just' isnt that difficult

[AlanG]

Small increases in spacial resolution lead to large increase in image size. Doublig the image size, from 24Mp to 48MP, resolution increases only a 50%.

 

That's right, so? This is why there won't be much point in increasing the pixel density unless you double it. The hope is to get a 24x36 camera that resolves as well as MF 50 megapixel cameras. That would be really great for such a small format. If Leica and other high end 35mm cameras do not press ahead in this direction, they will eventually find that much lower priced cameras will out resolve them.

[rosuna]

Well, many people say large imaging sensor put much stress on lenses, but I think many films are far more demanding.

[hoppyman]

Ouch! If the next M has Live View it *will* have soon or late an accessory EVF. The M will remain an M i.e. a rangefinder of course but a clip-on EVF will make a usefull complement to current optical finders. My bet is not my house but a good bottle of Normandy cider if you like that.

 

lct, you need the complete quote!

I will not be surprised if the next M has a CMOS sensor and Liveview, IF Leica Camera can source a sensor that will deliver better quality than we already get from the M9 AND fit it into the current form factor AND power it with only the current battery capacity.

 

I will bet my house that it will NOT have an EVF. No Rangefinder and optical finder means no M

 

Personally I'm just glad that Stefan Daniel is in charge and not a committee of Forum members

[stunsworth]

Personally I'm just glad that Stefan Daniel is in charge and not a committee of Forum members

 

I'm sure you know the old line about a camel being an animal designed by committee.

[lct]

Geoff, it is not rangefinder 'or' EVF, it will be rangefinder 'plus' optional EVF. In my cristal ball at least.

 

lct, you need the complete quote!

I will not be surprised if the next M has a CMOS sensor and Liveview, IF Leica Camera can source a sensor that will deliver better quality than we already get from the M9 AND fit it into the current form factor AND power it with only the current battery capacity.

I will bet my house that it will NOT have an EVF. No Rangefinder and optical finder means no M

Personally I'm just glad that Stefan Daniel is in charge and not a committee of Forum members

[lct]

Just that sort of thing to snap onto the hotshoe if we need so. Not that worse than the Frankenfinder or the Frank's Viso no?

 

[hoppyman]

Better than the proposed Frankenflex certainly. However the issue for fitting this to the hot shoe is what needs to happen inside the camera for it to function.

You need the sensor (CMOS presumably) information to be relayed to the LCT EVF, you need a completely different shutter, you need a sensor board and processor/s and buffer that will keep up with currently 18MP 35MB files (or what is the point, get a GF1 or something if you want to shoot video) you need a battery that can power all of this, you need to fit all of this new capability in the same form factor and take nothing out to do it, you need to make the interface no more complex, you need to not change the philosophy of the M system nor the compatibility with tens of thousands of existing M lenses, you need to not alienate your current traditional customer base, nor damage the unique position the system holds etc etc etc.

 

 

I have no idea what everyone's background is here. Mine was military R&D including integration of new equipment across a variety of aircraft weapons systems. One standing joke we had was a quote from a writer for aircraft magazines. " It is just a simple software change and a little sheet metal work"

 

Honestly it really really isn't.

I'm sure that lots of folks will keep wishing away and posting their concepts. Fair enough for fun. Just don't wish all of this stuff into the next M.

[lct]

Hehe! Don't try to ward off bad fortune Geoff. Your bet is over now. But never mind i will invite you in my new house in OZ when i win it.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[stunsworth]

It is just a simple software change and a little sheet metal work"

 

It's the same in the software world. There's a tendency for people to concentrate on the user/device interface and not realise that isn't all that's involved in making changes, it's only the tip of the iceberg as far as the underlying code is concerned. Many times I've has people tell me that a change must be simple, it's only when you've looked at the source that you can say whether it is or it isn't.