Making a M10 Macro & Telphoto friendly - a modern Viso or whatever

[andybarton]

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Steve this is a good point and I have given this some thought.

1. The fact is that when I look at the DSLR users many buy the camera with a zoom and never ever take it off.
    
   And?
    
   
2. I watched the pros at the tennis and they seem to use the same lens throughout the match...I did not see anyone changing their lenses, although several supported two cameras with different lens fitted to each.
    
   That's because they'd miss action while changing lenses and they know what lens they are going to use before they leave home.
    
   
3. If you look at the Canon & Nikon lenses there is indeed a range of prime focus types but they do NOT seem to be as fast as Leica M series. There are some very expensive and exciting telephotos but the rest did not excite me at least.
    
   Tennis pro photographers don't need fast lenses. They couldn't give a monkey's about an f1.4, as it is of no use to them at all
    
   
4. How often does anyone switch from a 180mm or above to lenses in the 16mm to 90mm range? What kind of event would demand that?
   

 

You still haven't responded to my list of R lenses that I use on the D700 that I have now given to you twice. It must be important to you as you have asked for it twice.

[andybarton]

Andy sorry I meant Nikon ..not Canon. Also I did not see your reply on the R lenses that you own.

 

The obvious question is why did you buy the 28mm, 60mm and 90mm for the R system when this is the sweet spot for an M camera and you have a 35mm ASPH , a 50mm cron and 90mm Summarit?

 

It seems to me that you only need a reflex anything for the 250mm and I suspect that is the situation many people find themselves in ...certainly I do. If that is correct the question is how often do you use the 250mm and for what kind of photography?

 

I have a 280, 400 and 560m ...I do not use them too often and really never with film as I found it too difficult.

 

I bought the 28, 60 and 90 so that I would have something to use on my R8. A body with no lens is useless.

 

You see, I have an open mind when it comes to cameras. I enjoy using a variety of cameras for different things and different days. Have you even considered that not everyone wants to try to make an M do everything? That there are other tools in the box? Open your eyes, and your mind.

 

And show me a 60 Macro lens that fits an M camera.

 

The 28 Elmarit-R is one of the best lenses that Leica have ever made (as is the 60, btw) and the 90 Summicron is almost too sharp and it isn't even the ASPH version. It was cheap.

 

The 90 Summarit was bought years after the 90 Summicron-R and is used when I am using my M equipment.

 

I use the 250 when I want to shoot photographs that need a 250 lens to take them with.

[bill]

Gentlemen,

 

It strikes me that we are falling into the trap of pandering to Frank's obsession and in doing so are contributing to his delusions and delaying the day upon which he seeks help for his obsessive-compulsive behaviours.

 

He has demonstrated on more than one occasion in this thread alone his inability to assimilate new information, even when it is presented clearly in black and white. He persists in an unreasonable and obsessive pursuit of something that only he sees as desirable, attainable or economically viable in spite of all the evidence presented to the contrary.

 

He ignores any suggestion to do anything other than pontificate about his theories - something that he can only do while we continue to engage with - bluntly, feed - him.

 

I am not comfortable that we are engaging with someone who can sustain a grip on reality. Frank needs help, and not the sort that we can provide over the internet.

 

I for one am now withdrawing from this thread. I do not want Frank's deteriorating mental state on my conscience.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[Guest BigSplash]

But who would buy it Frank? That's the question you seem unprepared to address. You say that Leica need to elbow in on the millions of Nikons and Canons sold every year, and your strategy for doing that is to introduce a revised Visioflex. If you mean by elbowing in on 11.2 Millions of sales going for an EXTRA 0.2% penetration I guess I say yes!

Already there are many people that have converted to M9 from Nikon and Canon ...wedding photographers seem to especially like what the M9 does compared to any DSLR.

Do you honestly think that such a product would compete with a Canon 5DII or a Nikon D700 in terms of sales numbers? ABSOLUTELY NO! NO! NO! Steve you pride yourself on detail ...you even picked me up that I said that there were 2000 iPhone apps and there are in fact much much more. You actually not only agreed with me but emphasized my point You saw and counted the trees but missed the wood.

Where have I said that an M10 with Viso would compete with a Canon 5DII or Nikon D700 and get large sale numbers?

I have repeatedly looked at small numbers of increase in sales by allowing the Leica to revert to being a system offering again...maybe 15KU to 25KUnits extra of M10 annual sales with perhaps only 5KU Visos sold per year

 

Steve people like system cameras and I feel that the M is a very niche product that needs explaining to potential buyers.

 

You mentioned Harrods and I was thinking on an impulse to buy my M8 there but was told by the salesperson that the Leica M8 is crap and cannot do continuous mode (They had inserted a slow low cost SD card to prove it!)

[giordano]

Other non-buyers for the FrankoViso are people (some of us are perfectly civilised in other ways) who like to use zoom and tilt-shift lenses. A 17-35mm f/2.8 or 24-70mm f/2.8 is bulky and expensive enough when made for the 46mm register of a Nikon SLR; one with its glass another 22mm from the sensor would be horrendously big and expensive. Tilt-shift lenses would be at least as difficult thanks to the small diameter of the M bayonet.

[earleygallery]

Once again Frank you ignore what others have written and press ahead with your own misguided agenda. You really are a troll aren't you? Come on own up.

 

Michael and James you both seem to like an EVIL but you see this as a complete camera solution that also covers the 16 to 135mm range where I happen to like the M.

 

Pardon Frank? Where have I said any of that?

 

James you say buy R lenses and fit it to the rumoured DSLR that will cost about £8K and the R telephoto lenses do not even have autofocus.

 

Again Frank that is NOT what I said. I've no idea what price any eventual camera may be, I said use R lenses on a Canon body now - if you really so badly need to have macro and long tele Leica lenses with a digital body. The solution is there, available now and relatively cheap.

 

Both of you like the idea of an EVIL

 

I don't - I didn't say that, again you put words into peoples mouths for your own benefit!!!

 

and if it was a cheap accessory that capitalised on my M8 shutter, sensor, SD card firmware DSP etc that I have already paid for and think is good then count me in. However the idea to buy a new camera just for telephoto and macro sounds expensive ...If it was cheap I guess that I would be interested

 

IT IS CHEAP, LOOK AT THE PRICE OF A CANON BODY, ANY DSLR CANON BODY!! and that is what I like about a Viso with some electronics integrated to achieve aperture priority, auto focus etc if Leica built new lenses for such a device...

[stunsworth]

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You mentioned Harrods and I was thinking on an impulse to buy my M8 there but was told by the salesperson that the Leica M8 is crap and cannot do continuous mode (They had inserted a slow low cost SD card to prove it!)

 

That's a very interesting story Frank, but it doesn't actually address the question I asked does it?

[Guest BigSplash]

That's a very interesting story Frank, but it doesn't actually address the question I asked does it?

It does not I did not think you were being serious.

I think your question was "should Harrods (House of Fraser I guess you meant as I know you like to be precise and detailed;)) take over Tesco or Asda?."

 

The answer is simple ...progressively over a period of time they should look at how they can nibble away and grow their market share. ..so YES to slowly eating share.

 

Unless Tesco or ASDA shares achieve junk status due to some event there is no way I believe that House of Fraser could afford and outright bid....so NO to an outright bid.

 

Companies such as Waitrose or World Food in Kensington (I think that is the name?) have spotted a high end niche that has been perhaps not well served by Tesco and have gone for it very successfully. I believe this proves the point.

 

Many other companies have a niche and do not grow it year to year by attacking their competitors in a focussed way. There are many Woolworth and other retailers that closed their doors last year are good examples. In manufacturing think of the many UK companies that closed their doors or were taken over: Rolls Royce cars, Triumph cars, Plessey, etc. because they did not go after niches.

 

In photography I am not suggesting a full takeover of Canon or Nikon by Leica. I am saying that Leica apparently have a 95% share of the high end RF niche..growing this would be IMHO difficult unless Leica widen the appeal of the niche slightly, and in so doing woo some DSLR high end users.

I also said that Leica have today 0.2% share of the high end DSLR niche ...surely their job is to progressively grow this by a miserable extra 0.2% (ie more than double their revenues due to extra lens sales). The alternative is to risk M9 sales dropping once the diehard M enthusiasts have bought their digital M. This is what happened at the end of the M8 era.

 

Jaapv says he will not buy a M10 unless it is exceptional etc as he is happy with his FF M9...I am sure many will feel the same. Others have expressed concern that the bold move Leica has made with the S2 will payoff. The cash cow is M (plus sports optics) so how should they grow this cash cow?

[redbaron]

The Viso is so last century.

[Guest BigSplash]

James you wrote:

quote:

Originally Posted by BigSplash

Michael and James you both seem to like an EVIL but you see this as a complete camera solution that also covers the 16 to 135mm range where I happen to like the M.

 

Pardon Frank? Where have I said any of that?

 

James you say buy R lenses and fit it to the rumoured DSLR that will cost about £8K and the R telephoto lenses do not even have autofocus.

 

Again Frank that is NOT what I said. I've no idea what price any eventual camera may be, I said use R lenses on a Canon body now - if you really so badly need to have macro and long tele Leica lenses with a digital body. The solution is there, available now and relatively cheap.

 

Both of you like the idea of an EVIL

 

I don't - I didn't say that, again you put words into peoples mouths for your own benefit!!!

 

and if it was a cheap accessory that capitalised on my M8 shutter, sensor, SD card firmware DSP etc that I have already paid for and think is good then count me in. However the idea to buy a new camera just for telephoto and macro sounds expensive ...If it was cheap I guess that I would be interested

 

IT IS CHEAP, LOOK AT THE PRICE OF A CANON BODY, ANY DSLR CANON BODY!! and that is what I like about a Viso with some electronics integrated to achieve aperture priority, auto focus etc if Leica built new lenses for such a device...

unquote

 

James I agree that you did NOT give a rining endorsement of an EVIL solution as an alternative to the M camera and if I have taken your words out of context which I clearly have many apologies.

What I have understood is that you say that I should wait for the eventual DSLR or EVIL solution and in the meantime I should buy a Canon + adapter + R lenses, which is a positive constructive approach so thanks for that. The price tag of about £8K for the rumoured Leica R replacement originates from the Leica rep. who said that the price will be between an M9 (£5K) and S2 (£18K) ...others suggest that it will be nearer the S2 ...I live in hope that £8K is a better figure for a product that is only rumoured.

Playing back the above you suggest I should buy an R lens without autofocus and put this on a Canon that has autofocus? Even at up to 60% discount from SH Photo this is an expensive lens and is still not able to do what a new range of telephotos could do with my high tech Viso. That is why Leica discontinued the R series we are told because it was none competitive if even an R10 emerged. ..or am I missing something?

You also suggest DSLR or EVIL to address my desire for entering the world of Macro and telephoto. I repeat that I am happy with my M8 for anything between 16mm and 90mm. You do not say why but having recommended the EVIL you now say that "YOU DO NOT LIKE THE EVIL" Why not?

We can argue about price I guess and yes Canon DSLR's are cheap compared to the Leica M8 that I already have. I think the sensor and electronics of the Leica give better images than a Canon. I think that Leica glass is better than Canon but R lens telephotos do not have autofocus.

 

My belief is that if Leica did bring out a next gen Viso as an accessory they could and should do so with an aggressive price and marginal profit. They would make their extra revenue and profit in two ways:

1. Achieve more interest in a more comprehensive M system that could match DSLR's where a RF camera is weak ....driving just an extra 0.2% penetration would double M sales.
   
2. Pull thru revenue and profit for telephoto and macro lenses that are not today in the line up. These tend to be expensive lenses from Canon and Nikon and Leica already have the optics designed, plus presumably they are presumably enroute to develop AF for the S2 or the rumoured new reflex.
   

I really am at a loss why people do not get the point.

[bill]

Gentlemen, please leave Frank to it. His posts have reached the point of incoherence.

 

Frank, I am completely serious when I say that you should go and seek help for your obsessive and irrational behaviour.

 

You have my pity.

[andybarton]

I am so confused by all the different colours in Frank's last post, I have no idea who has said what.

 

Just by the by, since when did Al Fayed take over House of Fraser?

[Guest BigSplash]

The Viso is so last century.

 

• Redbaron do you mean the Visoflex III...I agree.
  
• Do you mean an accessory that is conceptually similar to an adapter that people use for adapting R lenses to Nikon or Canon bodies (albeit without aperture control or AF)...Such adapters are last century too.
  
• Do you mean an accessory that features:
  
  • A modern ground glass screen as used in today's SLR's not Visos of old
    
  • A modern mirror housing that is well dampened as used in today's best DSLR's
    
  • Integrated electronics that drives at least:
    
    • aperture setting motor,
      
    • autofocus motor
      
    • ISO value setting, derived from M10
      
    • shutter speed data from the M10
      
    • real time exposure measurement calcualted within the Viso
      
    • allows manual selection between aperture or shutter priority.
      
    • Display of M10 and Viso key data within the viewfinder.
      

The above will require some integration of complex ASIC cells and software many of which I suspect are available within Leica as part of their Maestro devt. You call that last century!

I await what you think the future next century holds.

[redbaron]

How's the election going, Andy?

[andybarton]

Playing back the above you suggest I should buy an R lens without autofocus and put this on a Canon that has autofocus? Even at up to 60% discount from SH Photo this is an expensive lens and is still not able to do what a new range of telephotos could do with my high tech Viso. That is why Leica discontinued the R series we are told because it was none competitive if even an R10 emerged. ..or am I missing something?

 

What lens are you thinking of buying to go with your Canon? Manual focus R lenses work fine on Canon bodies via an adapter, provided you accept stop down metering, which is no hardship for most people.

[stunsworth]

I am so confused by all the different colours in Frank's last post, I have no idea who has said what.

 

I totally agree, there may be a point being made, but I'm struggling to find what it is, or who is making it.

 

I'm guessing Frank didn't put his own Powerpoint presentations together when he was in work.

[Guest BigSplash]

Andy I comment in blue

Originally Posted by BigSplash

Steve this is a good point and I have given this some thought.

1. The fact is that when I look at the DSLR users many buy the camera with a zoom and never ever take it off.
    
   And? Why buy a system camera and interchangeble mount if you are not buying a range of primes.
   
2. I watched the pros at the tennis and they seem to use the same lens throughout the match...I did not see anyone changing their lenses, although several supported two cameras with different lens fitted to each.
    
   That's because they'd miss action while changing lenses and they know what lens they are going to use before they leave home. Untrue they could change lenses at changeover times..but they do not. The fact is that they all seem to leave home with the same lens ..and the published results did at Monte Carlo all look the same.
   
3. If you look at the Canon & Nikon lenses there is indeed a range of prime focus types but they do NOT seem to be as fast as Leica M series. There are some very expensive and exciting telephotos but the rest did not excite me at least.
    
   Tennis pro photographers don't need fast lenses. They couldn't give a monkey's about an f1.4, as it is of no use to them at all Who is talking f1.4 on a 280mm, 400mm 560mm lens? Who makes such a beast? What I am saying is that sports photography suggests to me a need for fast shutter speeds and that means widest aperture for lowest ISO oris that wrong? Is it really also true that as the sun drops they could not give a monkey's about having a wide aperturere?
   
4. How often does anyone switch from a 180mm or above to lenses in the 16mm to 90mm range? What kind of event would demand that?
   

[andybarton]

[*]Achieve more interest in a more comprehensive M system that could match DSLR's where a RF camera is weak ....driving just an extra 0.2% penetration would double M sales.

 

What you are actually saying here is that, if Leica are selling 20,000 M9s per year today, they will sell 40,000 next year, because of your Visoflex.

 

So, there are currently 20,000 people around the world waiting for the 21C equivalent of a pre-historic bolt on that tried to make an M camera in the 1960s into something it wasn't.

 

Somehow, that I find extremely hard to believe.

[andybarton]

Andy I comment in blue

Originally Posted by BigSplash

Steve this is a good point and I have given this some thought.

1. The fact is that when I look at the DSLR users many buy the camera with a zoom and never ever take it off.
    
   And? Why buy a system camera and interchangeble mount if you are not buying a range of primes.
   
2. I watched the pros at the tennis and they seem to use the same lens throughout the match...I did not see anyone changing their lenses, although several supported two cameras with different lens fitted to each.
    
   That's because they'd miss action while changing lenses and they know what lens they are going to use before they leave home. Untrue they could change lenses at changeover times..but they do not. The fact is that they all seem to leave home with the same lens ..and the published results did at Monte Carlo all look the same.
   
3. If you look at the Canon & Nikon lenses there is indeed a range of prime focus types but they do NOT seem to be as fast as Leica M series. There are some very expensive and exciting telephotos but the rest did not excite me at least.
    
   Tennis pro photographers don't need fast lenses. They couldn't give a monkey's about an f1.4, as it is of no use to them at all Who is talking f1.4 on a 280mm, 400mm 560mm lens? Who makes such a beast? What I am saying is that sports photography suggests to me a need for fast shutter speeds and that means widest aperture for lowest ISO oris that wrong? Is it really also true that as the sun drops they could not give a monkey's about having a wide aperturere?
   
4. How often does anyone switch from a 180mm or above to lenses in the 16mm to 90mm range? What kind of event would demand that?
   

 

I'm getting bored with this nonsense now, but seeing as I am having some enforced time at home...

 

People buy zoom lenses for the dSLRs because they are convenient and the vast majority of people are happy with their output.

 

As has been said numerous times in this thread alone, pros at sports events are commissioned to provide the shots that picture editors want. Which means that all the picture editors want the same or similar shots. So the pros know how to get those and equip themselves accordingly. They are not going to change lenses at change ends time, if they think that they are going to miss the shot that will earn them some money. After all, they don't get paid just for turning up

 

f1.4 f2.8 It's all the same. It doesn't matter and you are being picky for the sake of it. All that matters is that the shot is in focus (which means autofocus these days to get that one and only chance shot that pays the rent that week) and properly exposed. Chances are that they are using auto ISO, with a set shutter speed - I don't know, I'm not a pro and have never done that type of shot, but just making an intelligent guess.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[jaapv]

.

 

 

I really am at a loss why people do not get the point.

 

Because your point floats on a sea of faulty assumptions maybe?