Leica future DSLR

[adan]

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But there certainly is no other system that can give us the precise feedback one can get with magnified live view or tethered shooting - where you can zoom in and examine the finest details in an image and study them.

 

Probably true.

 

But irrelevant, IMHO. Can you show examples of pictures made via this accurate but s-l-o-w process (live view or tethered) that will stand the test of time and last beyond tomorrow's (or, in the case of magazines, next month's) trash can?

 

Elliott Erwitt was a successful commercial photographer. Does anyone remember ANY of his commercial work? (Excepting, perhaps, the old man, the boy, the bike, and the French bread - focused, BTW using prefocus on a rock in the road). I doubt it.

 

What he is remembered for - the pictures that count - are the grabbed moments that could not possibly have been done with live view or tethered equipment. Unless they had been staged (i.e. faked).

 

Now - that doesn't mean I'm not a realist. For the technical/mechanical reasons I already stated, whatever Leica comes up with as an "SLR" for non-S lenses is likely to be EVF, which implies live-view via the LCD if preferred, or even tethering capability (once one has a live feed off the sensor, one can push it down any wire one wants). Fortunately for photograp[hy, there will be other alternatives.

[Simon Baker]

 

DSLR is not Leica's game IMHO ...

 

I guess Leica do not share your opinion as they have a lot of Euro's invested in and riding on the success of the S2 , after all the S2 is a Dslr is it not;)

 

Simon

[stunsworth]

I guess Leica do not share your opinion as they have a lot of Euro's invested in and riding on the success of the S2...

 

Indeed they do, but I'm guessing that if the S2 - which was Mr Lee's baby - had been at an early stage of development when the economic crap his the fan, the project would ave been canned. There comes a point where you lose more money by terminating something than by pushing on through to release.

[AlanG]

Probably true.

 

But irrelevant, IMHO. Can you show examples of pictures made via this accurate but s-l-o-w process (live view or tethered) that will stand the test of time and last beyond tomorrow's (or, in the case of magazines, next month's) trash can?

 

Elliott Erwitt was a successful commercial photographer. Does anyone remember ANY of his commercial work? (Excepting, perhaps, the old man, the boy, the bike, and the French bread - focused, BTW using prefocus on a rock in the road). I doubt it.

 

What he is remembered for - the pictures that count - are the grabbed moments that could not possibly have been done with live view or tethered equipment. Unless they had been staged (i.e. faked).

 

Now - that doesn't mean I'm not a realist. For the technical/mechanical reasons I already stated, whatever Leica comes up with as an "SLR" for non-S lenses is likely to be EVF, which implies live-view via the LCD if preferred, or even tethering capability (once one has a live feed off the sensor, one can push it down any wire one wants). Fortunately for photograp[hy, there will be other alternatives.

 

If I were shooting the things that Erwitt shot, I might not choose a live view camera. It depends on how evolved they get. A GF-1 might do it OK for me, but I am quite adaptable. Live view shooting and zooming in to judge focus and DOF is generally best applied to still life, food, landscape and architecture where things don't move. In that regard it is very similar to using a view camera. And plenty of timeless, lasting shots were made with view cameras... weren't they, Ansel? Have you ever seen the book "East 100th Street" by Bruce Davidson?

 

If one checks into it one may find that some of those timeless moments were staged. (Not necessarily Erwitt's) In any case, you are only describing one very narrow aspect out of the entire field of photography.

 

And you can always use live view to check focus and DOF and then shoot via the regular optical viewfinder - SLR or rangefinder. I do this very often.

 

Tethered shooting is used for still objects also, but many people use tethered shooting for fashion and advertising work, shooting all kinds of fast moving stuff. I've see one guy who shoots Nike ads of athletes in action and he shoots tethered in the field. MF tethered shooting is very common in all aspects of photography. (Tethered shooting is for instant review - often by a digital tech who is checking focus, exposure and looking out for other problems, while the client, and AD check too.)

 

Whether one specific camera design or any other has anything to do with making images a particular individual will think stands the test of time is up to the photographer. Just because one camera displays an image via an EVF and another via a direct or reflex viewfinder will not determine where the photographer aims the camera or when the photographer releases the shutter. Heck many many great pictures have been made when the photographer isn't looking through any kind of finder.

 

Optical viewfinders, live view, tethered shooting, and remote control are all tools that a skilled photographer can use where and when that photographer feels they are appropriate. This is just more evolution from the traditional choices where one could view directly on a ground glass, or choose a twin lens reflex, SLR, rangefinder, waist level viewing, 45 degree prism, 90 degree prism, sports finders, etc. There even were small periscopes for camera viewfinders for overhead shooting and recently there have been video cameras that could show a remote view of the viewfinder.

 

Since EVIL and live view cameras have only been around for a short time, one may have to give it a chance to evolve before one is 80-100% satisfied with the performance. The early Leicas were not so fast either, but they evolved. And even then there might be some types of things you'd prefer to do with something else. If you can't see any advantages to shooting with live view or tethered for anything you are interested in shooting, then it probably is not for you.

[stunsworth]

In any case, you are only describing one very narrow aspect out of the entire field of photography.

 

Indeed, but if you look at the well known photographers who have used Leicas over the years it probably accounts for the majority of them.

[AlanG]

Indeed, but if you look at the well known photographers who have used Leicas over the years it probably accounts for the majority of them.

 

I really have no idea what you are getting at. Lots of great pictures in almost every category have been made with all kinds of cameras.

 

Anyway things change. At one time 100% of photographers used Daguerreotypes or Henry Fox Talbot's process. The M will keep being made if enough photographers feel that is the best camera for certain aspects of photography that they want to do. If another camera works better for it, then sales of the M will probably decline and the M design may go out of production.

 

Leica will have to build whatever types of cameras they are able to manufacture that will position them where they are trying to go. I don't know for sure where that is at this time. Maybe they have plans to cover several bases in the near future. In which case an EVIL system seems likely.

 

By the way, Sony just came out with an APS EVIL system.

[stunsworth]

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I really have no idea what you are getting at. Lots of great pictures in almost every category have been made with all kinds of cameras

 

What I was trying to say was that most of the well known photographers who have used, and still use, Leicas have used the M system in preference to SLRs. Sure lots of photographers haven't used Leicas, but as this is a Leica forum it seems reasonable to me to concentrate on that particular make of camera.

 

By the way, Sony just came out with an APS EVIL system.

 

Well hurray for them. I hope they do well in what is increasingly becoming a very competitive market.

[pierovitch]

Unless you hold the burst button down - 7fps on Sony. Using an EVIL style camera you are left with capturing the semi indecisive moment based on current focus algorithm time for current program, image lighting and contrast conditions.

 

You press the button and we will get back to you.

[AlanG]

Unless you hold the burst button down - 7fps on Sony. Using an EVIL style camera you are left with capturing the semi indecisive moment based on current focus algorithm time for current program, image lighting and contrast conditions.

 

You press the button and we will get back to you.

 

So are you saying that when Leica does make an EVIL full frame camera it won't be capable of capturing the decisive moment? How can you know so much about a product that has not been produced?

[pierovitch]

So are you saying that when Leica does make an EVIL full frame camera it won't be capable of capturing the decisive moment? How can you know so much about a product that has not been produced?

 

It was a general comment on the EVIL operation in current technology.

If Leica can get a very short consistent delay like a mechanical shutter then the decision returns to the photographer and not a microprocessor.

[tobey bilek]

The solution is at hand. Leitax mounts for Nikon, Novoflex adapters for Canon. Add a Katz Eye screen.

 

I just put Nikon mounts on my 28 and 35 PC lenses. The sole problem is thay make the Nikon glass look sick.

[AlanG]

The solution is at hand. Leitax mounts for Nikon, Novoflex adapters for Canon. Add a Katz Eye screen.

 

I just put Nikon mounts on my 28 and 35 PC lenses. The sole problem is thay make the Nikon glass look sick.

 

The new Canon 17 and 24 TSE lenses are almost beyond belief and have auto diaphragms and tilt (with dual rotators.) Those Schneider PC lenses are/were available in different mounts. The old Nikkor 35mm 2.8 PC is also a very good lens.

[wildlightphoto]

The solution is at hand. Leitax mounts for Nikon, Novoflex adapters for Canon. Add a Katz Eye screen.

 

I just put Nikon mounts on my 28 and 35 PC lenses. The sole problem is thay make the Nikon glass look sick.

 

A few other problems are that the DMR makes Nikon and Canon DSLR output look sick, and when using a Leica lens on a Nikon or Canon body the lens' auto-diaphragm function is lost and on some bodies (Canons in particular) light metering is not linear at working aperture.

[AlanG]

A few other problems are that the DMR makes Nikon and Canon DSLR output look sick, and when using a Leica lens on a Nikon or Canon body the lens' auto-diaphragm function is lost and on some bodies (Canons in particular) light metering is not linear at working aperture.

 

A 28mm PC lens won't be very wide on a 1.3 crop. Metering is not accurate with any shifted lens, and I've had no trouble using my Nikkor 35 PC on Canons. The Schneider (and old Nikkor) PC lenses don't have auto diaphragms.

[stunsworth]

...and on some bodies (Canons in particular) light metering is not linear at working aperture.

 

That was certainly true with the 5D - and I suspect any other body where you couldn't manually tell the body what a lens's maximum aperture was. Provided you shot RAW and set the camera to under expose a little - say 2/3rd of a stop - it could more or less be controlled.

[Symeon]

The M9's continuous mode of 2fps is not suitable for wildlife photography, and there is no way really you could frame and focus on anything above the 135mm focal length in an M rangefinder. The M8 gave 180mm (for the Tele-Elmar) with its crop factor but this was still below the average long telephoto length needed for wildlife, I think.

[farnz]

... and there is no way really you could frame and focus on anything above the 135mm focal length in an M rangefinder. The M8 gave 180mm (for the Tele-Elmar) with its crop factor but this was still below the average long telephoto length needed for wildlife, I think.

Many of us who use a Visoflex would disagree with you. Granted, it's not the easiest equipment to use but once you get the hang of it, it can produce excellent telephoto shots up to 800 mm.

 

Pete.

[wildlightphoto]

The M9's continuous mode of 2fps is not suitable for wildlife photography.

 

Certainly not as wildlife photography is typically practiced, but then there's Nick Brandt : Photography ... and the DMR is fine for me.

[markowich]

It was a general comment on the EVIL operation in current technology.

If Leica can get a very short consistent delay like a mechanical shutter then the decision returns to the photographer and not a microprocessor.

 

well, on the X1 they have not manged to do this.

peter

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[mjh]

It was a general comment on the EVIL operation in current technology.

If Leica can get a very short consistent delay like a mechanical shutter then the decision returns to the photographer and not a microprocessor.

EVIL cameras usually do have a mechanical shutter – Sony’s NEX-5 and NEX-3 for example, also all of the MFT models. However, once the image is in focus the remaining delay is quite short in any case, whether the camera has a mechanical shutter or a purely electronic one. Now whether you can focus faster using manual focusing with an M versus autofocusing with an EVIL camera, that is a different matter.