M9 color (from a newbie)

[kipdent]

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Hello all--

 

I have followed this Forum for a while in anticipation of receiving my new M9. It came last week! As an M6TTL user, the M9 is at once familiar, but also intimidating with its electronic heartbeat. I'm learning a bit each day and this Forum has been great, so thanks to everyone here. I'm sure I am not alone in stating I am an ecstatic owner so far, and don't regret for a second selling all my Canon DSLR gear to fund this acquisition!

 

In this first post I have two (probably simple) questions:

 

1) Does anyone share my initial impression that reds from the M9 seem to be a bit over saturated when viewing them on a computer display? I am viewing my M9 DNG files using Lightroom 2.6.1 on a MacBook Pro attached to an Apple LED Cinema Display that has been calibrated using the x-rite Eye One. Every other color looks quite natural (and neutral) to me, but reds seem to be "amped" up with an almost artificial appearance. Is this an opinion shared by anyone else, or is maybe something wrong with my M9?

 

2) For those M9/Lightroom users out there, is the M9 camera calibration built-in to version 2.6.1 already? When I drop down the Camera Calibration pane in the Develop module, the "Profile" pop-up lists only two choices when viewing an M9 DNG file--"Adobe Standard" and "Embedded." Is this expected? And finally, I'm assuming one should pick the "Embedded" profile selection before beginning any work on the file?

 

Thanks for any help!

 

Kip

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[Guest roey]

Welcome Kip.

 

I don't have a problem with the reds as long as I don't bow out (overexpose) the red channel. You can verify whether you have an overexposed red channel by checking the histogram.

 

How are the reds when you print?

 

Adobe Standard is the calibration for the M9. It also takes the edge of the red.

 

Hope this helps

[adan]

"Embedded" is the camera profile Leica and Jenoptik thought up and write into every .dng.

 

"Adobe Standard" is the camera profile Adobe's engineers created using sample M9 files.

 

I definitely would not assume "embedded" was preferable - Adobe has a far longer history dealing with RAW images and digital imaging in general than Leica. But I've never been satisfied with a "canned" program from any camera maker or Adobe - I always build my own with a MacBeth ColorChecker.

 

And yes, with the M9 (as with every other camera I've shot RAW with) I end up dialing down the red primary saturation by 10 points or so (and usually shifting the red hue towards yellow), as well as other changes to the default profile from Adobe.

 

If you don't have a color checker, you can probably do a back-of-the-napkin "profile" by using these numbers on the sliders of the Camera Calibration pane (as a starting point - you can always reapply a more exact profile to old images later) - have "Adobe Standard" selected in the pull-down:

 

Red Hue +10 (yellower)

Red Sat minus 10-15

 

Green Hue + 20 (bluer)

Green Sat + 10

 

Blue Hue zero

Blue Sat. minus 35-40 (which also cuts the yellow saturation - complementary color - and thus red saturation too (red containing yellow).

[thrice]

I include an X-rite Colorchecker Passport (gretagmacbeth colour target) in any colour critical work, and use the X-rite software to create a profile for it in lightroom. You may also want to try Capture One (free 30 day trial) to see if you prefer the processing. If Capture One included the graduated adjustment tool and brushes like Lightroom, I probably wouldn't use Lightroom at all.

[ronaldh]

I was printing some photos yesterday (M9 +LR2.6) and while they looked fine on the (calibrated) monitor the blues printed out oversaturated and with a turquoise cast while other colours were fine. Am I doing something wrong and am I alone in finding the M9 files more vivid and less natural than those on the M8?

[Jamie Roberts]

If you get a chance, try Capture One instead. I know it's not free, but out of the box, the colours (especially red / magenta) for the digital Ms is much better IMO than Lightroom, though it appears the next version of Lightroom will be greatly improved (from the beta develops I've seen to date).

[kipdent]

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Thank you everyone! I will switch to the Adobe Standard profile and I'll also try Capture One. I actually own it; I just have gotten so used to LR's interface I use it without thinking. I remember now reading elsewhere that Capture One seems to do a better job with M9 files.

 

I'm hoping LR 3 will be better, too, but I've read it seems to be quite a resource hog and much slower, at least in its current beta form. This is disappointing...

 

Thanks again for everyone's help--this is a great Forum.

 

Kip

[Guest WPalank]

I was printing some photos yesterday (M9 +LR2.6) and while they looked fine on the (calibrated) monitor the blues printed out oversaturated and with a turquoise cast while other colours were fine. Am I doing something wrong and am I alone in finding the M9 files more vivid and less natural than those on the M8?

 

What paper are you using and what icc profile for the paper.? In other words, who created it?

[adan]

Ronald - two points:

 

1. In addition to profiles, which Rendering Intent are you using? I've noticed the biggest difference between Perceptual and Relative Colorimetric is a shift in cyan in skies.

 

2. With RAW images, the vividness and saturation of images from any given camera is totally a function of the settings you use in processing the raw image - the camera profile (as already mentioned) and the saturation and Vibrance sliders.

 

I get the feeling that some folks regard shooting RAW as just a fancier and more controllable alternative to shooting jpegs. Just push the default button and you get perfect pictures.

 

It isn't.

 

Shooting and processing RAW is like walking into a color darkroom with a color negative. You have to be on top of your printing and color theory skills. And you have to assume that every new film (or camera) is going to require different exposure and different development and different filter packs - and run the tests needed to get the most from that particular imaging product.

 

The defaults provided by Adobe or Leica are like the "suggested" filter packs Kodak provides in every pack of color photo paper - a starting point, but not a magic bullet. Some brain grease has to be applied to get the specific results YOU are seeking.

[ho_co]

... I'm assuming one should pick the "Embedded" profile selection before beginning any work on the file?

Kip--

As others have said, there's no "should."

 

"Adobe Standard" is apparently Adobe's idea of how all files should look. That is, if you're using several different cameras, "Adobe Standard" will (as I understand it) make all the images come out looking more or less the same.

 

"Embedded," as Andy said, is Adobe's impression of what the camera manufacturer thinks the file should look like.

 

Either should serve as the basis for further adjustment.

[Guest ccmsosse]

"Embedded" is the camera profile Leica and Jenoptik thought up and write into every .dng.

 

"Adobe Standard" is the camera profile Adobe's engineers created using sample M9 files.

 

I definitely would not assume "embedded" was preferable - Adobe has a far longer history dealing with RAW images and digital imaging in general than Leica. But I've never been satisfied with a "canned" program from any camera maker or Adobe - I always build my own with a MacBeth ColorChecker.

 

And yes, with the M9 (as with every other camera I've shot RAW with) I end up dialing down the red primary saturation by 10 points or so (and usually shifting the red hue towards yellow), as well as other changes to the default profile from Adobe.

 

If you don't have a color checker, you can probably do a back-of-the-napkin "profile" by using these numbers on the sliders of the Camera Calibration pane (as a starting point - you can always reapply a more exact profile to old images later) - have "Adobe Standard" selected in the pull-down:

 

Red Hue +10 (yellower)

Red Sat minus 10-15

 

Green Hue + 20 (bluer)

Green Sat + 10

 

Blue Hue zero

Blue Sat. minus 35-40 (which also cuts the yellow saturation - complementary color - and thus red saturation too (red containing yellow).

 

Do you apply these adjustments every time or can you save them in a user file in LR?

[adan]

If LR is like Adobe camera raw - yes - you can save them as a "preset" which can be applied with a click to any picture. Or you can save them as a part of "New Defaults", in which case they will be applied to all pictures automatically forever (or until you reset the defaults to the "factory default" settings or overwrite them with new defaults yourself).

 

I do the latter, myself, once I'm sure the profile is dialed in. Then even the preview thumbnails pick up my profile.

[250swb]

Yes you can save User Presets in Lightroom Michael. I recommend Andy's settings and have been using them (or slight variations) in ACR since he published them last time. They give a very natural look to the photograph 'out of the camera' imo.

 

Steve

[jyrkialanen]

"Embedded" is the camera profile Leica and Jenoptik thought up and write into every .dng.

 

"Adobe Standard" is the camera profile Adobe's engineers created using sample M9 files.

 

I definitely would not assume "embedded" was preferable - Adobe has a far longer history dealing with RAW images and digital imaging in general than Leica. But I've never been satisfied with a "canned" program from any camera maker or Adobe - I always build my own with a MacBeth ColorChecker.

 

And yes, with the M9 (as with every other camera I've shot RAW with) I end up dialing down the red primary saturation by 10 points or so (and usually shifting the red hue towards yellow), as well as other changes to the default profile from Adobe.

 

If you don't have a color checker, you can probably do a back-of-the-napkin "profile" by using these numbers on the sliders of the Camera Calibration pane (as a starting point - you can always reapply a more exact profile to old images later) - have "Adobe Standard" selected in the pull-down:

 

Red Hue +10 (yellower)

Red Sat minus 10-15

 

Green Hue + 20 (bluer)

Green Sat + 10

 

Blue Hue zero

Blue Sat. minus 35-40 (which also cuts the yellow saturation - complementary color - and thus red saturation too (red containing yellow).

 

Hello Andy. I haven't used Lightroom 2.6, only the 3 beta. Can your settings be used also with 3 beta as a starting point or is the M9 camera profile with beta different with the one in 2.6?

 

Best regards, Jyrki

[AlanJW]

I have tried Andy's tweaks to the ACR presets and even though I was generally ok with the "Standard" applied to M9 files, I find a noticeable improvement. Thank you very much!

 

I did not save as "default" because I use other cameras as well as M9. I would be happy to use this as "standard" but I am not sure that is possible.

 

 

"Embedded" is the camera profile Leica and Jenoptik thought up and write into every .dng.

 

"Adobe Standard" is the camera profile Adobe's engineers created using sample M9 files.

 

I definitely would not assume "embedded" was preferable - Adobe has a far longer history dealing with RAW images and digital imaging in general than Leica. But I've never been satisfied with a "canned" program from any camera maker or Adobe - I always build my own with a MacBeth ColorChecker.

 

And yes, with the M9 (as with every other camera I've shot RAW with) I end up dialing down the red primary saturation by 10 points or so (and usually shifting the red hue towards yellow), as well as other changes to the default profile from Adobe.

 

If you don't have a color checker, you can probably do a back-of-the-napkin "profile" by using these numbers on the sliders of the Camera Calibration pane (as a starting point - you can always reapply a more exact profile to old images later) - have "Adobe Standard" selected in the pull-down:

 

Red Hue +10 (yellower)

Red Sat minus 10-15

 

Green Hue + 20 (bluer)

Green Sat + 10

 

Blue Hue zero

Blue Sat. minus 35-40 (which also cuts the yellow saturation - complementary color - and thus red saturation too (red containing yellow).

[Guest roey]

LR saves your presets on a per camera-basis. You can even set it up to save them on a per serial number-basis and have different presets for different ISOs.

[eleanorbrown]

I am brand new to leica too and have had my M9 about a week or so. I am finding that I prefer the Capture One interpretation of the RAW files over Lightroom but am working with Lightroom too. Eleanor

 

If you get a chance, try Capture One instead. I know it's not free, but out of the box, the colours (especially red / magenta) for the digital Ms is much better IMO than Lightroom, though it appears the next version of Lightroom will be greatly improved (from the beta develops I've seen to date).

[jaapv]

I'm very impressed by your work, Eleanor. Exactly the style I like

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Hallo,

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[Jamie Roberts]

I am brand new to leica too and have had my M9 about a week or so. I am finding that I prefer the Capture One interpretation of the RAW files over Lightroom but am working with Lightroom too. Eleanor

 

Welcome, Eleanor! Let us know how you like the M9

 

Lightroom is certainly a better asset management tool than C1. But with V5, C1 has entered new territory in terms of quality of output, IMO.

[ronaldh]

Every time I think I am getting my head around it all I find there is still more to learn but thanks for all your helpful comments.

 

Ronnie