X1 skin ailment

[erure]

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"... he told me he couldn't give me a return because I had already opened and used the camera so he cannot sell it as new?"

 

Check with your State because the dealer may have to take back the camera if it is defective. If not, make sure he knows that neither you, nor anyone else you know, will ever be doing business with him again. And let others on the board know who this dealer is.

 

I know you're worried about the issues, but if you otherwise like the camera, go ahead and use it until the vulcanite is half peeled-off, the battery door no longer closes, etc., then send the damn thing back to Leica with the probability of getting a new one.

 

Leica must be overwhelmed with returns/repairs; and the camera is not even widely available as of yet! NO EXCUSE.

 

If you used a credit card, you may be eligible for a refund. I would check with your credit card company. BTW, this is not a dealer I would want to do any business with. Of course he can't sell the camera in that condition, who would buy it? That's not your problem. Good luck!

 

I think it would be in the best interest of Leica to stop production of this camera until these issues are resolved.

 

Thank you for your responses. I was bewildered, mostly because I thought that the camera would be replaced (and the dealer told me it would be replaced when I spoke to him over the phone, but apparently he thought that the camera was in worse condition than it actually is, which I don't understand but that doesn't matter I guess) and there is a chance it might not be. The seller took back the camera and he told me he would let me know when he hears back from Leica, which apparently didn't happen today because he hasn't called me back yet. I dug around the house and found the receipt, and it says that "All sales are final." I can see why he would say that for most purchases, because there are people who return cameras back after they use it for a short period of time even though the camera works fine, but wouldn't this case be different, since there are three things wrong with the camera? I don't know what to do. At this point, I'm just hoping that Leica will replace the camera, but if they repair it, I'll just use it, since there was nothing wrong in terms of the quality of the photographs that the camera produced.

 

The dealer was a nice guy, but his return policy will probably result in me never doing business with him again, no matter what happens with the X1. I really regret going back to the dealer and leaving the camera with him -- I should have dealt with it myself and contacted Leica directly. I just assumed that I would be entitled to at the very least an exchange (I mean, it had only been a week!), but I guess it's my fault that I didn't read the fine print on the receipt.

 

Lastly, wilfredo, I paid for it with my debit card. Should I call my bank or VISA? Thank you.

 

//edit

So I just called the dealer and asked him if he'd heard back from Leica yet. I thought that Leica would have called him back about the issue (and they did, but nothing was decided) but he said he shipped the camera back to Leica and after they look at the camera themselves, they will decide what to do. They can either just repair the camera (unlikely, no?), replace the camera, or just give back credit because they don't have any cameras to replace it with. I'm frustrated, but with myself more than anything.

[Cronanirl]

Sorry to hear about your X1, I've been hesitant to contact my dealer to secure the one he has in stock.

 

I'm a big Leica fan, my D2's Thorsten and JT got me back into photography. They were two cameras with a flaw (sensor). However, they are now one of the most popular tools here.

 

Perhaps we'll discuss the issues with the X1 in the same light in years to come.

 

What it comes down to for me is this: AUD $2,300.00 for a camera that I'm concerned about returning and I don't even have it in my hands yet.

 

At this point. I have to say no. (I don't want to though )

[erure]

The more and more I think about it, the angrier I get. It is my fault that I didn't see the "All sales final" remark on the receipt but guess what?

 

California Civil Code section 1723:

 

(a) Every retail seller which sells goods to the public in this state that has a policy as to any of those goods of not giving

full cash or credit refunds, or of not allowing equal exchanges, or any combination thereof, for at least seven days following purchase

of the goods if they are returned and proof of their purchase is presented, shall conspicuously display that policy either on signs

posted at each cash register and sales counter, at each public entrance, on tags attached to each item sold under that policy, or on

the retail seller's order forms, if any. This display shall state the store's policy, including, but not limited to, whether cash refund, store credit, or exchanges will be given for the full amount

of the purchase price; the applicable time period; the types of merchandise which are covered by the policy; and any other conditions

which govern the refund, credit, or exchange of merchandise.

 

( This section does not apply to food, plants, flowers, perishable goods, goods marked "as is," "no returns accepted," "all sales final," or with similar language, goods used or damaged after

purchase, customized goods received as ordered, goods not returned with their original package, and goods which cannot be resold due to health considerations.

 

©

(1) Any retail store which violates this section shall be liable to the buyer for the amount of the purchase if the buyer returns, or attempts to return, the purchased goods on or before the

30th day after their purchase.

(2) Violations of this section shall be subject to the remedies provided in the Consumers Legal Remedies Act (Title 1.5 (commencing with Section 1750) of Part 4).

(3) The duties, rights, and remedies provided in this section are in addition to any other duties, rights, and remedies provided by state law.

 

The dealer never told me that all sales were final, it wasn't on the camera box, and if my memory serves me correctly, there were no other notices saying that all sales were final (i.e. at the entrance or the cash register). I only saw "All sales are final" on the receipt, AFTER I had already purchased the camera.

 

So what shall I do? I got a call from the dealer today saying that he talked to a Leica rep who said they'll probably repair the camera and not replace it. I love the X1 but I just realized that I don't have to wait for that X1 to be repaired/replaced -- I can get a refund and buy it from another, more trustworthy dealer. I really wanted to support the brick and mortar stores in Southern California, but this experience has left a very bad taste in my mouth. I think I'm going to call the dealer tomorrow and ask again for a return, and if he says no, then I'll go talk to my card company and/or bank. If anyone can give me any input, I'd greatly appreciate it, thank you.

[ChiILX1]

Hmm. I talked to my dealer over the phone last Friday and he'd assured me that it would be exchanged, since it had been less than a week since I'd purchased the camera. Today was the 7th day since I purchased the X1 and I went to the shop for the exchange (or more like giving back the camera and going home to wait for an exchange, since supply is so low). However, the dealer looked at the X1 and said that it wasn't a serious problem and that he seriously doubted that Leica would exchange the camera for me. Apparently he'd thought that the vulcanite had actually ripped off the camera or something? o_o So I told him about the battery cover problem AND the problem with the lens plate sticking out of the barrel (it was sticking out juuuust a little bit). He listed the problems and told me that he would contact Leica to see if they would repair the camera or replace the camera. I kind of feel like I should have just asked for a return or something, since it'd only been 7 days, but he told me he couldn't give me a return because I had already opened and used the camera so he cannot sell it as new? At this point, I'm just hoping that Leica will replace the camera, since there are technically three problems. Did anyone here get the camera repaired and not replaced with the same vulcanite problem? Thank you.

 

Regardless of your credit card company- the product is defective. I am in the credit card processing business and this is your play:

 

The merchant sold you a defective product plain and simple. It's very easy for them to exchange it with Leica and you aren't sitting around without a camera. You give them the option to exchange it or you will charge back (dispute) the purchase via your credit card company on the basis of a defective product. The merchant doesn't want that because if you dispute you automatically get the money back, they get charged $20-$30 and have a black mark on their processing record. Their processing company MAKES them resolve the dispute in your favor or else with too many chargebacks they will be shut down and not be able to accept credit cards.

 

You are in the absolute power position in the matter.

[ChiILX1]

The more and more I think about it, the angrier I get. It is my fault that I didn't see the "All sales final" remark on the receipt but guess what?

 

California Civil Code section 1723:

 

(a) Every retail seller which sells goods to the public in this state that has a policy as to any of those goods of not giving

full cash or credit refunds, or of not allowing equal exchanges, or any combination thereof, for at least seven days following purchase

of the goods if they are returned and proof of their purchase is presented, shall conspicuously display that policy either on signs

posted at each cash register and sales counter, at each public entrance, on tags attached to each item sold under that policy, or on

the retail seller's order forms, if any. This display shall state the store's policy, including, but not limited to, whether cash refund, store credit, or exchanges will be given for the full amount

of the purchase price; the applicable time period; the types of merchandise which are covered by the policy; and any other conditions

which govern the refund, credit, or exchange of merchandise.

 

( This section does not apply to food, plants, flowers, perishable goods, goods marked "as is," "no returns accepted," "all sales final," or with similar language, goods used or damaged after

purchase, customized goods received as ordered, goods not returned with their original package, and goods which cannot be resold due to health considerations.

 

©

(1) Any retail store which violates this section shall be liable to the buyer for the amount of the purchase if the buyer returns, or attempts to return, the purchased goods on or before the

30th day after their purchase.

(2) Violations of this section shall be subject to the remedies provided in the Consumers Legal Remedies Act (Title 1.5 (commencing with Section 1750) of Part 4).

(3) The duties, rights, and remedies provided in this section are in addition to any other duties, rights, and remedies provided by state law.

 

The dealer never told me that all sales were final, it wasn't on the camera box, and if my memory serves me correctly, there were no other notices saying that all sales were final (i.e. at the entrance or the cash register). I only saw "All sales are final" on the receipt, AFTER I had already purchased the camera.

 

So what shall I do? I got a call from the dealer today saying that he talked to a Leica rep who said they'll probably repair the camera and not replace it. I love the X1 but I just realized that I don't have to wait for that X1 to be repaired/replaced -- I can get a refund and buy it from another, more trustworthy dealer. I really wanted to support the brick and mortar stores in Southern California, but this experience has left a very bad taste in my mouth. I think I'm going to call the dealer tomorrow and ask again for a return, and if he says no, then I'll go talk to my card company and/or bank. If anyone can give me any input, I'd greatly appreciate it, thank you.

 

All sales final doesn't matter at all. State law doesn't matter- too long a process. Make it quick and simple. I use a debit or credit card on every purchase because of the buyers protection that automatically comes with the Visa or Mastercard logo. Please read my post above- they sold you a defective product and you can dispute the charge on that grounds and instantly get your money back. They HAVE to resolve it in your favor if you used a card. Check or cash you are out of luck.

[ChiILX1]

 

Lastly, wilfredo, I paid for it with my debit card. Should I call my bank or VISA? Thank you.

 

Yes! Dispute it through your debit card! Case closed!

[erure]

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Thank you bsgraupner -- your post really helped So should I call up the dealer and tell him I want a return first or should I just call up the card company first since he's already pretty much told me no? Thanks again!

[Tao]

I'd call your card company first and let them know the situation; they should tell you how to proceed. It may not be necessary, or desired, to contact the dealer again; let the bank decide.

 

The dealer is probably in dire straights and needs the bread; but it's still no excuse. Best of luck.

[dkCambridgeshire]

Does Leica ever publicly acknowledge their cameras' shortcomings? I don't recall anything said by them regarding the X1 anomalies.

 

dunk

[jsrockit]

Peeling vulcanite has also affected Contax in the past and some of their SLRs were well known for having the same problem.

 

dunk

 

The Leica CM has this issue as well.

[ChiILX1]

Thank you bsgraupner -- your post really helped So should I call up the dealer and tell him I want a return first or should I just call up the card company first since he's already pretty much told me no? Thanks again!

 

I would go to the dealer and tell them they have two choices-

 

1) exchange it willfully in which case they get to exchange the camera with Leica and give you a new one- -a clean transaction where you continue to be their customer

 

or

 

2) You take your money back in which case you have the camera they aren't taking back and go on to buy the camera elsewhere. In that case they have a chargeback on their record, have to get the camera back from you, have to pay $30 to their processor and lose a long time customer.

 

Their choice. Tell them it's one or the other. If they say no then you say fine, walk out the door and go to call your card company. You will get your money back almost instantly. I will be surprised if they don't call you back in before you walk out the door though- merchants are terrified of chargebacks (just make sure you are talking to the owner and not some teenage hourly).

 

This system is great for consumers but is unfortunately abused by some who take advantage of it and are frivolous with their chargebacks.

[Douglasco]

Leica received my X1 today so I will let you know if they repair or replace the camera as soon as I hear from them.

[erure]

Ugh, that was a train wreck. I called Bank of America and tried to file a claim for the purchase. I told them that the receipt says "All sales are final" but told them that I was never made aware of this policy until after the purchase (no notice on entrance or cash register, no tag on camera, salesperson did not tell me, etc.). The lady I talked to wouldn't let me file a claim because of the store's policy on returns. She said I have to wait until the repairs are done and if the camera arrives with same problems, then I could file another claim, even though that's 4-5 weeks. I can't believe this.

[h00ligan]

The store you purchased from doesn't know that. Play the bluff.

[erure]

I called the dealer and he said that there is no way that he can give me a refund because I used the camera. If Leica replaces the camera or credits him back for the camera, then he can give me a refund, but if they just repair the camera, then he can't sell it as new, so he can't give me a refund or that's his explanation. He talked about how there are risks with every purchase and it's not his fault that the camera had problems and blah blah blah. He said he could try to sell it on eBay after it comes back (if repaired and I still don't want it) and if he makes a profit on the X1 (more than market price, since demand is so high), then he will give me a refund. This is pretty frustrating. If anyone wants to know who this dealer is (i.e. you're in Southern California and you want to avoid this dealer), then PM me and I will let you know. I am never going to that shop ever again.

[ChiILX1]

I called the dealer and he said that there is no way that he can give me a refund because I used the camera. If Leica replaces the camera or credits him back for the camera, then he can give me a refund, but if they just repair the camera, then he can't sell it as new, so he can't give me a refund or that's his explanation. He talked about how there are risks with every purchase and it's not his fault that the camera had problems and blah blah blah. He said he could try to sell it on eBay after it comes back (if repaired and I still don't want it) and if he makes a profit on the X1 (more than market price, since demand is so high), then he will give me a refund. This is pretty frustrating. If anyone wants to know who this dealer is (i.e. you're in Southern California and you want to avoid this dealer), then PM me and I will let you know. I am never going to that shop ever again.

 

He is lying to you. If a product is defective (as yours is) then he returns it to Leica! Of course he can't sell it new it's defective! What a crock- Chargeback!

 

I wonder what he would do if he received a leica shipment that the lenses wouldn't extend or the cameras wouldn't turn on- would he tell people sorry or sell them at his store? No! He would return them.

[erure]

He is lying to you. If a product is defective (as yours is) then he returns it to Leica! Of course he can't sell it new it's defective! What a crock- Chargeback!

 

I wonder what he would do if he received a leica shipment that the lenses wouldn't extend or the cameras wouldn't turn on- would he tell people sorry or sell them at his store? No! He would return them.

I agree with you, but I called the bank and they said they can't do anything about it because it says "All sales are final" on the receipt.

 

I e-mailed the dealer first (and my thoughts were more clearly represented on the e-mail -- I told him I wanted a refund or I would call the bank, file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, and tell others about their ridiculous store policies) then called him because I wasn't getting a response. He explained why he couldn't give me a refund (in a very exasperated tone); he also said something like "This is the last time I'm talking to you about this." So we talked and I hung up, frustrated. Then some time later he called me after reading the e-mail and talked to me in loud voices about me "threatening" him and how it's so unfair of me to treat him this way after all he's done for me and blah blah blah. At that point, I was just tired of all of it, and I told him that I won't file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau or call my bank.

 

I think I'm just going to wait for the X1 to be repaired or replaced or whatever Leica decides to do with it. But I am never going to shop from OC Camera again.

 

Whoops.

[wilfredo]

Thanks for giving us the heads-up on OC Camera. I live in the great OC so this is good to know. Not too long ago I bought a lens from Adorama, I decided it wasn't for me and returned it. I got no hassles at all from them. I've also returned items to Samy's Camera in Orange County and they too have been good sports. That's why I'm buying my 50mm Summilux ASPH from them.

[h00ligan]

That's good to hear Wilfredo, as I just ordered a lens from adorama and had never done business with them. It's hard sometimes because you can see stings of nearly five stars regarding vendors, but they could be padded, old, etc. Nice to hear these things from a smaller community.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[erure]

Thanks for giving us the heads-up on OC Camera. I live in the great OC so this is good to know. Not too long ago I bought a lens from Adorama, I decided it wasn't for me and returned it. I got no hassles at all from them. I've also returned items to Samy's Camera in Orange County and they too have been good sports. That's why I'm buying my 50mm Summilux ASPH from them.

 

Yeah, I loved going to that store. It's a great store, except their return policy is pretty ridiculous. Note the "All sales final" on the receipt because I didn't until I had a problem with my X1