pop Posted March 31, 2010 Share #61 Posted March 31, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) but when it becomes technically possible to put video inside M without intruding the process of taken stills Let's resume this discussion when or if it becomes technically possible. As soon there are real options, it is at least possible to discuss pros and cons in a kind of meaningful way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Hi pop, Take a look here Video mode on future M. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
250swb Posted March 31, 2010 Share #62 Posted March 31, 2010 Let's resume this discussion when or if it becomes technically possible. As soon there are real options, it is at least possible to discuss pros and cons in a kind of meaningful way. It is technically possible. If Leica was thinking about it the next stage would be announcing it, all the technology is available. But by which time talking about it may seem like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. I'd hope they don't do it, or at least carry on with a simple 'M' without video, but I'm sure for a lot of pro newshounds (for instance) the availability of video would greatly enhance their news gathering potential. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted March 31, 2010 Share #63 Posted March 31, 2010 It is technically possible. Steve If so, I presume you can answer the following: Using which sensor? For still photography a Leica M requires a special sensor with offset microlenses - proprietary to Leica and Kodak. The full-frame CCD made by Kodak for the M9 is not a video-capable sensor (requires a mechanical shutter between "frames" to avoid image smear, so it can't handle 24/30/60 frames per second). Video CCDs need to use interline-transfer technology, which cuts the resolution by half (half the pixels are blocked from incoming light to serve as storage pixels) - or CMOS. Kodak no longer makes CMOS sensors. In an M-sized body? Since the sensor, viewing screen, and the digital circuitry in-between are "on" full-time for video, they draw more power and produce more heat. And thus require a larger battery and heat sink. Micro-4/3rds cameras can shoot video with M-mount lenses in an M-sized body - by using a CMOS sensor 1/4 the area of the M9's (2x crop), which draws less power and crops away the parts of the image where the microlenses are needed. The hit to image quality is huge, though, compared to the M9. Taking everything into consideration (color clarity, noise, resolution, etc.) - I'd rate the M4/3rds cameras' still-photo quality at about 25-30% that of the M9. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted March 31, 2010 Share #64 Posted March 31, 2010 I can see what you are doing Andy, assuming that everything stays the same and current technologies that Leica are using are continued with. Of course when one says that technology is available one doesn't always have to think in terms of what is, but what can be if outsourced. You have a box say, and instead of looking in it, you look outside it. A video capable M camera doesn't even have to look like an M camera, so you could start imagining the direction it could take there. Steve Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted March 31, 2010 Share #65 Posted March 31, 2010 I can see what you are doing Andy, assuming that everything stays the same and current technologies that Leica are using are continued with. Of course when one says that technology is available one doesn't always have to think in terms of what is, but what can be if outsourced. You have a box say, and instead of looking in it, you look outside it. A video capable M camera doesn't even have to look like an M camera, so you could start imagining the direction it could take there. Steve Steve What you are proposing would no longer be an M, and since most dual purpose cameras usually suck. Why not just put M lenses on a Canon GL2.... as an example? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 31, 2010 Share #66 Posted March 31, 2010 , but I'm sure for a lot of pro newshounds (for instance) the availability of video would greatly enhance their news gathering potential. Steve This is exactly why they are shooting 5DIIs, cameras which Leica will never build and which are eminently suited to their needs - Are you suggesting Leica attempts to compete with that? They would last two months... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted March 31, 2010 Share #67 Posted March 31, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Paws up all the pro newshounds around here? Regards, Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted March 31, 2010 Share #68 Posted March 31, 2010 This is exactly why they are shooting 5DIIs, cameras which Leica will never build and which are eminently suited to their needs - Are you suggesting Leica attempts to compete with that? They would last two months... Am I suggesting Leica compete with Canon? No, whatever gave you that idea? If you can point it out I'll apologise for the typo, otherwise I'll just put it down to you being you jaapv. swamji, I'm not "proposing" a camera that isn't an 'M', nor even an M camera with video in it. Just because I don't like the idea of a video M it doesn't give me blinkers to stop me from imagining how one could be done. Technology is what we have, things that don't need inventing from scratch, unlike warp drive, or a pill to stop the world going hungry. As such all things that go into a full frame camera with video we have one way or another, even the possibility of a battery pack to clip on to run the damned thing. They just need adapting. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted March 31, 2010 Share #69 Posted March 31, 2010 swamji, I'm not "proposing" a camera that isn't an 'M', nor even an M camera with video in it. Just because I don't like the idea of a video M it doesn't give me blinkers to stop me from imagining how one could be done. Technology is what we have, things that don't need inventing from scratch, unlike warp drive, or a pill to stop the world going hungry. As such all things that go into a full frame camera with video we have one way or another, even the possibility of a battery pack to clip on to run the damned thing. They just need adapting. Steve The main question for me is, Why? I don't see a need. A rangefinder video camera? What is the point? If you want to experience what that would be like, try taking a picture of a toddler in full active mode using a Nocti. It really builds skill. In order to support Video, you would have to add so many features, the simple rangefinder concept would be lost. In the past there were some movie camera's that used Leica Lenses, but I don't think anyone today would be happy with that limited functionality On top of that, I am certain that Leica will not go that way, because even the X1 (a CMOS based camera) does not have that feature (though my D-lux 4 does). Dreaming of the what can is fine, but somebody dreamed of the Edsil and the M5 as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 31, 2010 Share #70 Posted March 31, 2010 Am I suggesting Leica compete with Canon? No, whatever gave you that idea? If you can point it out I'll apologise for the typo, otherwise I'll just put it down to you being you jaapv. but I'm sure for a lot of pro newshounds (for instance) the availability of video would greatly enhance their news gathering potential. Steve Well, considering that the Canon 5Dii is the camera your pro newshounds are using in general, amongst other things for its video capability, I find it very hard to visualize what other competition for your proposed camera you would imagine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted March 31, 2010 Share #71 Posted March 31, 2010 swamji, you may as well say what is the point of a digital rangefinder camera, film is still made, so there must be something driving Leica designwise? But it seems convenient for some to forget all those perfectly functional film Leica's when it comes to berating video is an un-necessary step to far. I'm happy enough to acknowledge I can be open to new ideas like a digital rangefinder when it suits me, and equally not like the idea of video installed in one. So that makes me a hypocrite, but I know it. Steve Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted March 31, 2010 Share #72 Posted March 31, 2010 swamji, you may as well say what is the point of a digital rangefinder camera, film is still made, so there must be something driving Leica designwise? But it seems convenient for some to forget all those perfectly functional film Leica's when it comes to berating video is an un-necessary step to far. I'm happy enough to acknowledge I can be open to new ideas like a digital rangefinder when it suits me, and equally not like the idea of video installed in one. So that makes me a hypocrite, but I know it. Steve Steve I think we are comparing apples and oranges. Digital range finders make sense. Rangefinder based motion picture cameras died along time ago, and a digital version IMHO makes no sense. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted March 31, 2010 Share #73 Posted March 31, 2010 Well, considering that the Canon 5Dii is the camera your pro newshounds are using in general, amongst other things for its video capability, I find it very hard to visualize what other competition for your proposed camera you would imagine. Well, I have made no allusion to overall numbers, but I've seen Leica M9's being used when watching the news on TV, so it doesn't seem to far fetched that those would be the journalists I would be thinking of, amongst others I've not seen on TV and working in other areas of the world where the discreet nature of the M is an advantage? Or perhaps you deny professionals are using M9's? Thats the difficulty in your weird logic, the M9 is already in 'competition' with the Canon 5Dii. What would you do, tell them they are wrong to use a Leica because it shouldn't be part of the competition for the 5dii? In that sense why would it make any difference if their M10 had video and played a selection of tunes from 'South Pacific', its still going to be used in smaller numbers than the Canon. So no, the Leica is never going to be in competition directly with Canon or Nikon, but its absurdly proscriptive to imagine it can't be part of the mix, but perhaps you already know that, and you are just arguing for the sake of it? Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted March 31, 2010 Share #74 Posted March 31, 2010 In that sense why would it make any difference if their M10 had video and played a selection of tunes from 'South Pacific', Steve Oh... I get it. What you want is an iPhone that uses M lenses. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 31, 2010 Share #75 Posted March 31, 2010 I think we are comparing apples and oranges. Digital range finders make sense. Rangefinder based motion picture cameras died along time ago, and a digital version IMHO makes no sense. If you consider that one can only view on the LCD when shooting videos with DSLRs, then perhaps having an optical viewfinder makes some sense for filming. And of course you'd be able to use the LCD also. (With or without a magnifier/hood.) So the rangefinder wouldn't handicap the M for video work in any way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted March 31, 2010 Share #76 Posted March 31, 2010 If you consider that one can only view on the LCD when shooting videos with DSLRs, then perhaps having an optical viewfinder makes some sense for filming. And of course you'd be able to use the LCD also. (With or without a magnifier/hood.) So the rangefinder wouldn't handicap the M for video work in any way. Ok... I'll get Steve Jobs to work on a FF iPhone M right a way.... we can just ignore it's only reason for existence.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 31, 2010 Share #77 Posted March 31, 2010 Well, I have made no allusion to overall numbers, but I've seen Leica M9's being used when watching the news on TV, so it doesn't seem to far fetched that those would be the journalists I would be thinking of, amongst others I've not seen on TV and working in other areas of the world where the discreet nature of the M is an advantage? Or perhaps you deny professionals are using M9's? Thats the difficulty in your weird logic, the M9 is already in 'competition' with the Canon 5Dii. What would you do, tell them they are wrong to use a Leica because it shouldn't be part of the competition for the 5dii? In that sense why would it make any difference if their M10 had video and played a selection of tunes from 'South Pacific', its still going to be used in smaller numbers than the Canon. So no, the Leica is never going to be in competition directly with Canon or Nikon, but its absurdly proscriptive to imagine it can't be part of the mix, but perhaps you already know that, and you are just arguing for the sake of it? Steve Arguing in absurdem is a well-known trick. It still doesn't justify advocating adding features that are alien to the concept of this specific camera, just because others, competition or not, have it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted March 31, 2010 Share #78 Posted March 31, 2010 Arguing in absurdem is a well-known trick. It still doesn't justify advocating adding features that are alien to the concept of this specific camera, just because others, competition or not, have it. Jaap Tisk, Tisk, Tisk... Coming straight to the point again... anyway, well said. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 31, 2010 Share #79 Posted March 31, 2010 Ok... I'll get Steve Jobs to work on a FF iPhone M right a way.... we can just ignore it's only reason for existence.... From what I can tell, the M's reasons for existence are decreasing, not increasing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted April 1, 2010 Share #80 Posted April 1, 2010 (edited) Arguing in absurdem is a well-known trick. It still doesn't justify advocating adding features that are alien to the concept of this specific camera, just because others, competition or not, have it. So the "concept" is defined somewhere and is immutable?? Every feature is alien to each "specific camera" until the camera gets that feature. At one time, a film advance lever was alien to a Leica. At one time, electronics were alien to all cameras. High quality video capability was alien to DSLRs until that feature was added. Now it is looking like video is a standard feature to be expected in a camera. Time marches on. Technology advances. Needs change. I guess if someone someday shoots a video with a Leica M, their hands will develop warts. Edited April 1, 2010 by AlanG Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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