andybarton Posted March 7, 2011 Share #281 Posted March 7, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) And live view and video go together. (It is pretty unlikely to get one without the other.) D700 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 Hi andybarton, Take a look here Video mode on future M. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted March 7, 2011 Share #282 Posted March 7, 2011 Maybe the best solution from our point of view (not neccesarily Leica's!) would be to go the way of the film cameras, two types of camera at the same time. One feature-loaded M10 with live-view, video, smile recognition and firing, automatic HDR, horizon levelling, etc (all of which, if I understand the arguments correctly should remain switched off.) and one M10P which does not even have AE, just like the M6. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted March 7, 2011 Share #283 Posted March 7, 2011 Sorry to be blunt, but nothing you say here makes sense to me. There are plenty of cameras that are smaller than the M that have live view and can shoot video. What the heck does "messing it up" mean? In the M, they took a mechanical camera design and made it into a digital camera. So that is a much greater change than will be necessary to simply add live view and video mode to the digital M form factor. (Getting the required sensor and electronics are another story.) In the 5DII, Canon added live view, video, increased resolution, and quite a few improvements to the 5D without altering the design. And they improved battery performance too. Are you saying you feel that Leica is incapable of updating their cameras periodically? Regardless of what features may be added to the next M, I can't see them bothering to introduce a new model unless they add all new electronics and probably a new sensor. (Every new digital cameras seems to have a new sensor.) So there are smaller full frame digital cameras? As I said in a previous post a sample of the things that would need to be changed. And it's not as simple as you make it out to be, you underestimate the effort. Getting the sensor is not another story, it's part of the equation. Not to mention entirely redesigning the shutter, electrical systems, etc. You realize that if the M8 had full frame, that would still be the flagship M Camera. Leica has always move glacially. But even so, We should not compare Canon, to Leica, its not fair to either of them. I think ultimately the final path is one that Jaapv proposes. What form that takes will be interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 7, 2011 Share #284 Posted March 7, 2011 I can just see it, a Noctilux wide open and a moving subject: "Yes! I have focus, woops he moved 1 cm - wait a minute - there we have focus again - no we don't- d**n which way do I turn?-Ah!-there he is-etc....:p" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 7, 2011 Share #285 Posted March 7, 2011 So there are smaller full frame digital cameras? As I said in a previous post a sample of the things that would need to be changed. And it's not as simple as you make it out to be, you underestimate the effort. I don' t think the sensor size and shutter has any bearing on the size of the electronics. Which obviously can be made much more integrated than Leica is currently doing in the M. And who said it was "simple" to do this? I thought Leica presents itself as a capable camera company. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 7, 2011 Share #286 Posted March 7, 2011 D700 Yes, but I can't see future cameras coming out with live view and no video. Other than perhaps MF backs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted March 7, 2011 Share #287 Posted March 7, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I don' t think the sensor size and shutter has any bearing on the size of the electronics. Which obviously can be made much more integrated than Leica is currently doing in the M. And who said it was "simple" to do this? I thought Leica presents itself as a capable camera company. Electronics is the least of the problem, it's mechanics, power consumption, power storage. Not to mention trying to fit it all of it in the same form. You really ought to know how the camera functions before you say such things. There is a power cost in the current shutter design for leaving it open, in a design that had not changed in a long time. But dream on, these things can be overcome, some day you may get the camera of your dreams. I already have mine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdtaylor Posted March 7, 2011 Share #288 Posted March 7, 2011 What the heck does "messing it up" mean? I would propose any new function(s)/interface(s) which are placed between me and the action of taking a photograph. I for one cannot say if this can be done or can't, but I just don't want to see the current experience complicated. IF Leica could overcome any technical and performance issues, provide me with the same experience for still shooting that I experience now, and make utilizing video relatively easy (and not add a fortune to the cost), I would be fine with video. Ignore if you want, use it if you want. Don't really care about the technical arguments, just care about the outcome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted March 7, 2011 Share #289 Posted March 7, 2011 Hi Terry, Many thanks for summarizing so succinctly what I take away from this thread. May be this thread will flare up again in a year or so. Best, K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 7, 2011 Share #290 Posted March 7, 2011 I would propose any new function(s)/interface(s) which are placed between me and the action of taking a photograph. I for one cannot say if this can be done or can't, but I just don't want to see the current experience complicated. IF Leica could overcome any technical and performance issues, provide me with the same experience for still shooting that I experience now, and make utilizing video relatively easy (and not add a fortune to the cost), I would be fine with video. Ignore if you want, use it if you want. Don't really care about the technical arguments, just care about the outcome. Can you and others entertain the possibility that Leica could add features and at the same time also improve the user interface? And for some applications, there can't be less between the act of seeing and taking a picture than using live view, where you can see if you have the exact correct framing, focus, and exposure at the time of exposure. Whereas the rangefinder/viewfinder puts a lot of mechanical complexity, imprecision, and guesswork between you and your photograph. (Imprecise frame lines, focus shift when changing apertures on some lenses, need for precise rangefinder calibration, estimating effects of various filters, no way to see if light is flaring on a lens, etc.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 7, 2011 Share #291 Posted March 7, 2011 Electronics is the least of the problem, it's mechanics, power consumption, power storage. Not to mention trying to fit it all of it in the same form. You really ought to know how the camera functions before you say such things. There is a power cost in the current shutter design for leaving it open, in a design that had not changed in a long time. But dream on, these things can be overcome, some day you may get the camera of your dreams. I already have mine. Isn't power consumption and power storage under the category of electronics? Maybe the shutter would typically be open and would simply need to close and then re-open to take a photo. So you don't think Leica is currently capable of doing this? Again, I never said it would be simple. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 7, 2011 Share #292 Posted March 7, 2011 Not on an M at present as there is no suitable sensor available. In the future, probably. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted March 7, 2011 Share #293 Posted March 7, 2011 Well, I hope there is one in the works. K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted March 7, 2011 Share #294 Posted March 7, 2011 Just a thought, what would panning look like without an AA filter. I'm having a flash back thinking about it... edit: Oh, I forgot, we are going to shoot wide open at f-1.0 all of the time and therefore very little would be focused to the degree of spacial frequency that it would matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdtaylor Posted March 7, 2011 Share #295 Posted March 7, 2011 Can you and others entertain the possibility that Leica could add features and at the same time also improve the user interface? And for some applications, there can't be less between the act of seeing and taking a picture than using live view, where you can see if you have the exact correct framing, focus, and exposure at the time of exposure. Whereas the rangefinder/viewfinder puts a lot of mechanical complexity, imprecision, and guesswork between you and your photograph. (Imprecise frame lines, focus shift when changing apertures on some lenses, need for precise rangefinder calibration, estimating effects of various filters, no way to see if light is flaring on a lens, etc.) Sure, and I would expect some improvements-othewise, why entertain the purchase the next MXX. Probably will have several which have not even been considered- that's what good designers do. After much use, most of the issues you mentioned above are not even noticed, just automatically accommodated. And the same has happened with my Nikon DSLRs with their faults (except for the overheating SB900). As I said before, I just care about the outcome- I leave it to others to play armchair CEOs/Camera Designers. My personal clients don't care much about the process, mostly the outcome I present to them. If a new camera gives me what I need/like/want, especially in respect to what I have, all the better. While several on the Forum argue strongly for a stripped camera while others argue as strongly for new features/capabilities, my guess is most of us fall in the middle. Long as we don't see feature bloat/button & menu complexity, and any changes are reasonable, fine. Many of these arguments appear to be made for the sake of themselves. From a designer interested in the end game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
!Nomad64 Posted March 8, 2011 Share #296 Posted March 8, 2011 Most persons are debating about technical feasibility, but very few bear in mind ergonomics. I'm just wondering this: if taking still pictures one cannot reliably shoot at slower speed than 1/8 without blurring the image due to trembling/shaking, how is one supposed to shoot videos with the same camera without inducing a sense of sea-sickness in the unhappy viewer? How is it possible that someone that can't hold still for 1/8th of second becomes rock steady for a 3 minutes video? Even worse if using the live view mode on the back screen, which ultimately induces to stretch one's arms thus amplifying the trembling/shaking consequences on the final result. As far as I'm concerned, 35mm cameras design is mainly unchanged since the '30s and that is a design that favors speed and immediateness but not stability. Not a problem if one takes pictures that require fractions of seconds, but definitely not the right shape if one has to hold still for some minutes. That's why they make camcorders in a different way. Adding video capturing on an M whilst technically feasible although involving some major complications is pointless as one could never get advantage of the fine optics for the reasons above. Hence my point: want to shoot good videos? Buy yourself a good camcorder. Want to shoot cra... er simple videos to post on facebook or wherever? Use your smartphone or a cheap camcorder. You must use at all costs Leica glass? Get yourself a japanese DSLR and mount R-lenses via an adapter ring. Cheers, Bruno Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 8, 2011 Share #297 Posted March 8, 2011 Of course this M would have IS on the sensor.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted March 8, 2011 Share #298 Posted March 8, 2011 Image stabilization would not be needed -- its noise would be picked up by the microphone. Depending on the situation, one either accepts some shakiness, uses a simple tripod/monopod, or uses a device like a Glidecam. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted March 8, 2011 Share #299 Posted March 8, 2011 Noise, I thought all the Enhancements are electronic, noise implies mechanical. We must keep up with the canikon's, so IS and AF, done at the sensor level is a must! P.S. Oh, and I am making the distinction between electo-mechanical and pure electronic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 8, 2011 Share #300 Posted March 8, 2011 Noise, I thought all the Enhancements are electronic, noise implies mechanical. We must keep up with the canikon's, so IS and AF, done at the sensor level is a must! P.S. Oh, and I am making the distinction between electo-mechanical and pure electronic. You know it isn't just Nikon and Canon. Panasonic, Sony, Olympus, Sigma, Samsung, and others have figured out how to do live view and video. Some have silent lenses now. Many people shoot video hand held with all kinds of cameras using various supports and braces or nothing but the camera. Some also use loupes by Zacuto, Hoodman, and others. All of the supposed "issues" raised here by some of you have been worked out for a while. The only technical barriers in Leica's way are their access to technology and design and fabrication abilities. They don't have to invent anything. This is just a hypothetical discussion to me. I don't care if Leica adds video to the M as I don't shoot video with anything but my p&s and cell phone. But I think that live view would be very handy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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