Low cost M digital entry level camera - How to implement?

[Guest BigSplash]

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Plasticman initiated the OP:

Phttp://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/119290-pity-m8-wasnt-maintained-entry-level.html

This posting was suggesting that Leica needs an entry level M digital product, and the M8 could provide this. I believe that a low cost cost entry level digital M is needed to :

• Drive unit volumes .....that helps Leica achieve better supplier pricing for the top M model (M9 currently)
  
• Drive extra revenues and profit for Leica on camera body sales
  
• Drive extra pull through revenues for M lenses and accessories.
  
• Introduce new users into the M family, that would find the M9 price too high
  

I do NOT IMHO believe the M8 is the vehicle to achieve these goals as I think it costs more to produce than a M9. (see the above thread). Despite the risk of personal ridicule I ask the question:

 

"How could a low cost M9 be realised?" and is there demand for such an item ?

Some thoughts are:

• Implement an entry level M (ME) with a high precision plastic body along the lines of a Digilux?..should save considerable cost over a classical metal M body, and allow precision fittng of sensor etc
  
• Use the same sensor as M9 (or M10) but have it fitted without shims and facilitate easy adjustment during manufacture?
  
• Implement a volume manufacturing line using a modular plug in methodology?
  
• Commit an initial 300 / day build plan and engage suppliers accordingly.
  
• Use subcotractors for subassemblies.
  
• Retain the M Mount, Range Finder mechanism, rear screen, and electronics as it is on M9 while developing a M10 with improvements such as waterproof seals, bigger internal memory, faster graphics card (based on S2 technology), and many other features often referred to in this forum .
  

I look forward to positive suggestions, and await the deluge of critique.

[Steve Ash]

Short counter-question: How will an entry-level M compete against the predecessor M model?

 

Regards

Steve

[andybarton]

So, why would anyone buy an M9, if the same camera (but plastic) is being made in the far east for less money?

 

How MUCH less money?

[earleygallery]

An 'entry level' M would be great but the question was posed many times before the M8 came along in terms of an entry level M film camera.

 

OK there was the CL but that was made in partnership with Minolta. A similar idea today would be if Leica were to partner with Epson and bring out a rebadged RD1 type camera.

 

I just can't see how Leica could make another M camera themselves which would be significantly cheaper than the M9, given that the sensor and rangefinder are two very expensive components.

 

Would a plastic body with a simpler rangefinder say, for I don't know, £1K less be sufficient, or would most people just stump up the cash for the better camera anyway? When the Summarit lenses are discussed many people seem to prefer opting for a s/h Summicron instead.

 

Given the demand for the M9 do Leica need to offer a cheaper alternative anyway? The 'entry level' M is a secondhand M8.

[UliWer]

Let us leave the decision to reality.

 

If the OP's concept works, we'll soon see a digital Zorki- or Seagull-M.

 

If we won't see it, the concept does not work.

[Guest BigSplash]

I suggested that sub assemblies could be made in far east with final assembly in the new factory being built at Wetzlar, as they have the final test capability and capital in place. However I guess the whole thing could be made in Asia ...good idea. I did not suggest as I thought that too radical.

 

I would have thought that retail price could easily be £1000 to £1500 level as M8 with its metal body was only £2200 when introduced. Certainly the price would be much less than the £5000. for a M9.

 

IMHO at that price level 300 units per day of demand should be easily achieved. IMHO the cost to produce could be of order £300 - £500 based on what Lumix retail at. I would add that a mid range Canon or Nikon DSLR's retail price for a much more complicated DSLR (eg Canon 50DII body only ) retails at about £700 last time I looked.

 

The positioning of M9 (and eventual M10) is crucial of course. If you are concerned that users will move from the metal body of a M9 (£5000) to a plastic (£1000 - £1500) camera you are correct. However you are also saying that the buying public will not pay a £4000 premium for that lovely metal box. I would ask would they pay a £200, £500, £1000 etc premium?

 

This is I think called pricing to value, and building products that people want. The concept of tier pricing is also relevant.

 

There clearly is a market for a £5000 M9 camera but it is not a huge one, and once those that have bought their M9 (FULL FRAME) camera then what? Why will they buy the M10 at £5000+ .?

[andybarton]

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If the OP's concept works, we'll soon see a digital Zorki- or Seagull-M.

 

 

 

 

That's very true.

 

The M mount is now in the public domain, so if there were a huge demand for an alternative, someone with a very low cost base would normally enter the market to fill the void. Just look at the number of "iPhone" look-alikes there were when they first came onto the market.

 

So, it doesn't have to be Leica that make an entry model.

 

In fact, maybe it's something that a wise entrepreneur should be pitching to the Chinese now. If I had some capital behind me, I might consider it. (But then again, if I had some capital behind me, I'd just be able to afford to buy the real thing )

[andybarton]

A thousand pounds? And built in Germany, in the new Wetzlar factory? Are you telling us that the metal body costs about another thousand?

 

Impossible.

 

A Canon 5DII body only is about £1700 btw. And a Lumix camera is entirely different from an ME, as you call it. After all, you have already specced this with the same sensor as even the M10...

 

Time to take a reality check, I fear, Frank.

[Guest BigSplash]

Let us leave the decision to reality.

 

If the OP's concept works, we'll soon see a digital Zorki- or Seagull-M.

 

If we won't see it, the concept does not work.

 

I think those companies would have the following barriers to implementing what you suggest:

1. Access to Kodak / Leica sensors. I would believe that these are patented and proprietary to Leica. Sticking the required microprisms onto someones sensor I suspect is a none trivial task.
   
2. Access to the software is also proprietary, and subject to copyright.
   
3. Access to the plastic moulding technology that Panasonic has may not be easy for the above companies.
   
4. Access to the 6 bit coding, the tricky way Leica do Light measurement that calculates aperture being used and adjusts the image correction in firmware is presumably subject to copyright. I would believe that many other subtle items are patented to Leica.
   

Otherwise I guess the M mount is no longer protected, and likewise the rangefider mechanism.

[Guest BigSplash]

That's very true.

 

The M mount is now in the public domain, so if there were a huge demand for an alternative, someone with a very low cost base would normally enter the market to fill the void. Just look at the number of "iPhone" look-alikes there were when they first came onto the market.

 

So, it doesn't have to be Leica that make an entry model.

 

In fact, maybe it's something that a wise entrepreneur should be pitching to the Chinese now. If I had some capital behind me, I might consider it. (But then again, if I had some capital behind me, I'd just be able to afford to buy the real thing )

 

Andy see my reply to this one....a M (none copyrighted) mount does not a digital Leica M camera make...there is more to it!

 

Hang on to your money, do not go to China and wait for leica to provide you with an affordable digital FF M camera. I seriously believe that you and Bill would be at the front of the queue to buy a £1500 FF Leica M digital.

[andybarton]

I would be at the front of the queue to buy a FF Leica M at £1,500

 

But I am also realistic enough to know that this is never going to happen as it would kill M9 sales stone dead in an instant even if it were technically or economically possible.

 

(Have you considered what this will do to the resale value of your M8, btw?)

[andybarton]

Andy see my reply to this one....a M (none copyrighted) mount does not a digital Leica M camera make...there is more to it!

 

.

 

Really?

 

If Leica managed to make a ff digital M, from scratch, with some help from a sensor manufacturer, and a software house, what makes you think that Seagull couldn't, if this massive demand was actually a reality?

 

"People" don't want rangefinder cameras these days. "People" want better cameras in their mobile phones. "People" want better "hold it out at arms length" point and shoots. "People" want cheap digital SLRs with auto-everything. "People" want 70-200 auto-focus zooms for £120

 

People that use rangefinders are a very, very small proportion of the camera-buying public. You could sell a digital M for £100 and the vast majority of people wouldn't buy one. Because it doesn't have auto-focus, it's too "difficult" and it doesn't make Dad in the park with Little Tommy look like a "pro".

[dpattinson]

It occurs to me that if this was a good idea, they would have done it with the film cameras... where it would have been even easier to implement.

[Guest BigSplash]

A thousand pounds? And built in Germany, in the new Wetzlar factory? Are you telling us that the metal body costs about another thousand?

 

Impossible.

 

A Canon 5DII body only is about £1700 btw. And a Lumix camera is entirely different from an ME, as you call it. After all, you have already specced this with the same sensor as even the M10...

 

Time to take a reality check, I fear, Frank.

 

Andy .....I am saying that Leica price to value and they have convinced people that their metal case is worth a much higher price. You should not continue to mix up cost and selling price. They are very different animals.

 

Also I identified Canon 50D11 (£725 from Calumet Photo) not Canon 5Dii (£1700) ...again this is an example of tier pricing and pricing to value, that maybe Leica could learn from.

 

The 5Dii has a FF sensor but as we have already seen elsehwere and people agree with me and have concrete evidence that the sensor price gap has narrowed for cropped and FF sensor.

 

Yes time to take a reality check Andy I fear.

[mjh]

Access to Kodak / Leica sensors.

The KAF-10500 is freely available and the sensor in the M9 would probably be too costly anyway. Or use an off-the-shelf APS-C sensor as Epson/Cosina did with the R-D1.

 

Access to the software is also proprietary, and subject to copyright.

You could write your own software. It’s not like Leica/Jenoptik’s stuff was that cutting edge that nobody else could replicate the functionality.

 

Access to the 6 bit coding, the tricky way Leica do Light measurement that calculates aperture being used and adjusts the image correction in firmware is presumably subject to copyright.

Provide a manual selection of lenses, a long list of every lens available for or adaptable to the M mount that you can lay your hands on, and allow the user to cut down this long list to the lenses he or she actually owns. Trust me: nobody would complain.

 

If there is a market for this type of product, eventually there will be an entrepreneur pulling it off. There’s nothing to hold you back.

[redbaron]

I just had to check Leica's corporate values in case they changed recently. Here's the link; Leica Camera AG - Corporate Values

 

Nope, still no mention of an el-cheapo camera.

[snaggs]

Seriously, this post is just wish list rubbish with no factual basis, but lets pretend it was, in which case I say;

 

NO

 

Protect traditional build values

Protect european jobs (I'm Australian)

Protect the no-compromise build ethic that is unique.

 

If you want a built in China, high-volume good value camera there are plenty of Cannon's and Nikons. If you say you want mechanical build quality, remember that its these people who stripped all these values out of Nikon and Canon.

 

Why would you even think of inviting this fate on Leica?

 

Daniel.

[Guest BigSplash]

If Leica managed to make a ff digital M, from scratch, with some help from a sensor manufacturer, and a software house, what makes you think that Seagull couldn't, if this massive demand was actually a reality?

/quote]

Leica have now 3+ years in production of a M8 and seven months of a M9 FF camera ...They have overcome significant difficulties to ship product of a proper quality level. Before that they have had a long R&D effort and have patents. How on earth can Seagull enter this market at this point and take on Leica who are down the learning curve plus have IPR ?

If you are nevertheless correct and they are successful would that mean that Leica get to sell more M lenses and would these lenses callibrate with the Seagull product's RF?

 

 

"People" don't want rangefinder cameras these days. "People" want better cameras in their mobile phones. "People" want better "hold it out at arms length" point and shoots. "People" want cheap digital SLRs with auto-everything. "People" want 70-200 auto-focus zooms for £120/quote]

Actually people will pay for quality and they want a small camera not a large DSLR. To some extent the X1 meets that criteria but it is far too expensive, does not have interchangeable lenses as offered by DSLR's. , and is not in the same league as a M Camera IMHO.

 

People that use rangefinders are a very, very small proportion of the camera-buying public. You could sell a digital M for £100 and the vast majority of people wouldn't buy one. Because it doesn't have auto-focus, it's too "difficult" and it doesn't make Dad in the park with Little Tommy look like a "pro".

 

You are correct because of the current Leica entry level price. Most people I know would not buy a £5000 camera body....yet these people do buy a £2000 DSLR with lens and then buy a £200 compact as their DSLR is too big, heavy to carry around on a trip to the zoo!

 

The difficulty part somehwat disappears if you set auto shutter and check the picture for focus after each frame as my wife does. This was not possible with a film M and it is a major change for the novice.

[andybarton]

That's why people would buy a Panasonic G1 (or similar) and get a much smaller camera with the features that they are looking for.

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[stunsworth]

"Most people" wouldn't buy an M8 if it cost 500 GBP. It doesn't have the feature set that "most people" are looking for these days. No zoom lenses, no AF and so on.

 

It's a niche product and it always will be.