Spiller interview in Welt Online

[stunsworth]

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Frank, since you mentioned Hasselblad, you are aware that the Hasselblad Xpan was in fact made in Japan by Fuji and not by Hasselblad aren't you?

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[Guest BigSplash]

I seem to remember that when the M8 came out Zeiss said that they wouldn't be able to sell a similar camera for less than what Leica were asking for the M8 - and no, I can't find the quote.

 

Steve this is a defeatist approach that I have seen repeatedly in companies that have had real issues that were subsequently addressed. I would ask:

• So why did they hire Herr Spiller who was a consultant at Zeiss if Zeiss say they cannot improve on Leica performance?
  
• Do you really believe that it is IMPOSSIBLE to make a lower cost M8 or M9 at the same quality level?
  

My view is that you can improve the quality and reduce the cost dramatically and that seems to be something Leica (Herr Spiller interview) does not see as a goal or a need.

 

I have already given many suggestions as to how to achieve but on this forum there is a love for manual manufacture and not volume production using CMC tools backed by committed volumes towards the suppliers of the various piece parts.

[stunsworth]

...on this forum there is a love for manual manufacture and not volume production...

 

Congratulations on finally seeing the light.

 

The reason there will probably never be volume production of a Leica M camera IS BECAUSE THERE ISN'T A MARKET TO SUPPORT SUCH PRODUCTION, AND IN A WORLD OF MASS PRODUCED "ME TOO" PRODUCTS IT'S LEICA'S MAIN USP.

 

I assume you know what a USP is.

[Guest BigSplash]

Well, they could sit in the factory, and if an assembly doesn't match the specs refuse to let it be used in a camera. Or is that too simple?

 

Steve yes it is too simple by far IMHO.

By way of example British Airways have 100 inspectors on site at Boeing (Seattle plant) approving every aspect of the contsruction of their jets. They have specialists that check the build of wings, electronics installation, undercarriage etc etc.

 

• Do you believe that Leica have a similar army at Panasonic?
  
• Do you believe that within the Japanese culture of high quality driven by the individual employee that Panasonic would allow this within their assembly process?
  

IMHO what Leica have are QC people that do random checks of final products within their final carton and check that the manual, CD, power supply are there and that the camera appears to work.

If you have other facts please correct me.

[wlaidlaw]

Frank,

 

Zeiss have inspectors in Cosina and used to have in Kyocera as well. I used to be a beta tester for Contax and would hear the stories of the "Vario-Sonnars at dawn" dramas that used to occur there. At one point some Zeiss people were saying that the Zeiss inspectors were rejecting some 75 to 80% of the N series lenses that Kyocera built. A tad of friction in the relationship between Zeiss and Kyocera ensued. After the beta test panel totally slated the final luxury titanium Contax sub-miniature digital, as being wholly unsalable (the U4R), the relationship broke down totally. Strangely enough, the entire warehouse full of U4R's in Hamburg, burnt down to the ground the next week - funny that.

 

Wilson

[rosuna]

No, it's not about loyalty. It's a mixture of forbearance and capacity for suffering.

 

 

Maybe he tried to make a joke... but I don't find it funny.

[rosuna]

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Hasselblad was (and is) more than happy working with Fuji instead of Zeiss, due to the strict criteria of the German company and the more open and collaborative approach of the japanese.

 

If memory serves me well, Hasselblad approached Zeiss for the development of the lenses for the H system, but Zeiss thought they had a better offer from Kyocera (developing AF lenses for both the new N system and the 645 system, under "Contax" name, owned by Zeiss itself, but licensed to Kyocera).

 

Zeiss lenses for the Sony Alpha system have two serial numbers, one for the whole lens (Sony's) and another one for the optical cell (Zeiss'). It seems Zeiss is again very strict in checking their specifications.

 

I don't know if Leica's design and manufacturing control of Panasonic-made lenses was similar. It never was clear to me. On the other hand, Panasonic is the larger manufacturer of aspherical lenses in the world. They make these lens elements in tiny sizes for almost all optic companies in the world. I don't know if there is a connection between Panasonic and Leica regarding asph lenses (patents, licenses, supplies...).

 

Zeiss is able to make lenses for other mounts (EOS, F, K, etc.) just because Cosina is the manufacturer. This japanese company got access to the permissions of other japanese companies. In other case, it would have been impossible for Zeiss. I think Leica tried to make lenses for other mounts and the answer of the companies approached was "no". It is not a bad idea, in theory, to make Leica lenses for other japanese reflex systems, as Zeiss does, but it is not possible. Leica has to develop and sustain camera systems for their own lenses. It was difficult in the film days, and it is even more difficult in this digital era. Leica had to evolve into an electronics/software company too.

 

It is a complex world, and a complex industry.

[giordano]

Puts does not suggest that "manual manufacturing" - whatever you think you mean by that - gives 1µm accuracy while computer aided manufacturing gives 5µm. What he does say is that hand assembly and adjustment by experts can manage tolerances in the 1µm range, while mechanised production - i.e. products that are assembled by robots or by assembly-line labour - can't consistently achieve tolerances better than around 5µm. I actually would challenge that as such tolerances are a decade old in the semiconductor industry already.

 

There's a big difference between building up successive layers on silicon, and assembling big odd-shaped 3-dimensional components. How much does a fab plant cost? No doubt a similar investment could create a robot plant for Leica lenses - but if I was a bank manager I'd have to see a very persuasive business plan before I lent them the money.

[Douglas Sharp]

I think you are all overlooking the most obvious translation of Leidensfähig and how it was meant in the interview: IMHO, the word is "tolerance".

 

Leica has frequently directly and indirectly demanded that customers tolerate delays, glitches, bugs and interminable waiting times for new products.

 

Try this for his customer definitions (my translation):

 

"In the first line, collectors who buy every single M model that we put on the market. But there are also customers with a strong affinity for technical products who are looking for a superior quality camera with a full-format digital sensor. And then there are the ambitious photographers who don’t want just any camera, but one with a Leica red dot. They want the best possible quality, and they want to show that they can afford it."

 

I must admit the order seems to be chosen without much thought beforehand, and could even be construed as being a little cynical - simply an unfortunate choice of words.

 

Cheers

Douglas

[nhabedi]

I think you are all overlooking the most obvious translation of Leidensfähig and how it was meant in the interview: IMHO, the word is "tolerance".

 

Or maybe you are overlooking the fact that if he had meant "tolerance" he could have used the German word "Toleranz"?

 

[k-hawinkler]

I think you are all overlooking the most obvious translation of Leidensfähig and how it was meant in the interview: IMHO, the word is "tolerance".

 

Leica has frequently directly and indirectly demanded that customers tolerate delays, glitches, bugs and interminable waiting times for new products.

 

Try this for his customer definitions (my translation):

 

"In the first line, collectors who buy every single M model that we put on the market. But there are also customers with a strong affinity for technical products who are looking for a superior quality camera with a full-format digital sensor. And then there are the ambitious photographers who don’t want just any camera, but one with a Leica red dot. They want the best possible quality, and they want to show that they can afford it."

 

I must admit the order seems to be chosen without much thought beforehand, and could even be construed as being a little cynical - simply an unfortunate choice of words.

 

Cheers

Douglas

 

Well, no. The German word for tolerance is Toleranz or Duldsamkeit or Geduldsamkeit. Mr Spiller didn't use one of those words.

 

It is worth noting though that the word leidensfähig was fed to Mr. Spiller by Welt Online: " Ihre Kunden müssen leidensfähig sein und teils Monate auf eine M9 warten. Warum kommen Sie mit der Produktion nicht nach?" Mr. Spiller answers: "Tatsächlich ist die Leidensfähigkeit der Kunden hoch, wenn die Identifikation mit einer Marke groß ist. ..."

 

K-H.

[earleygallery]

Leica's main buyers are collectors, technically skilled photographers and people who have aspired to own a Leica which they see as being one of the best camera brands.

 

Leica customers have endured/suffered the teething problems and long waiting periods for the new digital M's - or - Leica has a loyal customer base who will put up with the 'issues' we face in brining new products to the market.

 

That's how I read it, and can't say I find anything too far off the mark in that.

[ho_co]

It is worth noting though that the word leidensfähig was fed to Mr. Spiller by Welt Online: " Ihre Kunden müssen leidensfähig sein und teils Monate auf eine M9 warten. Warum kommen Sie mit der Produktion nicht nach?" Mr. Spiller answers: "Tatsächlich ist die Leidensfähigkeit der Kunden hoch, wenn die Identifikation mit einer Marke groß ist. ..."

And, as i pointed out in the first post, Google Translate uses two different terms for the translations of question and response. Few words can always be translated only one way, and Google's automatic service surprisingly catches two nuances of the German term.

 

[Man vgl. z.B. LEO Forums-Einträge zu "Leidensfähigkeit," insbesondere LEO Forum und LEO Forum.]

 

 

Note also that in his response, Mr Spiller is speaking generally, and not specifically of Leica. (BTW--In US English, we would be more likely to speak of "identification with a particular brand" instead of "identification with a big mark.")

 

And he continues that this Leidensfähigkeit "... ist einerseits gut, aber natürlich wollen wir niemanden leiden lassen."

 

As I said in the opening, one detects a bit of tongue-in-cheek humor here, which is hard to translate. Clearly, Mr Spiller recognizes the connection of the word with "suffering."

[ho_co]

Leica customers have endured/suffered the teething problems and long waiting periods for the new digital M's - or - Leica has a loyal customer base who will put up with the 'issues' we face in brining new products to the market.

 

That's how I read it, and can't say I find anything too far off the mark in that.

 

I agree, James. At first the comments may seem a bit off-hand or condescending, but the more carefully one reads, the more accurate they look.

[andybarton]

For Frank's information, if he went to Solms and did the factory tour (something I think is essential for the future well being of the company) he will be able to ask Leica how they QC their "Panasonic" lenses. He will be told (as we were) that Leica have staff in the far east, checking lens quality on the Leica badged versions of the Lumix lenses.

 

So, unless the manager in Solms was lying to us, which I highly doubt, I accept that as being true and from the horse's mouth. This will be probably have been part of the deal and arrangement with Pansonic for the mutual benefit of both parties and I see no reason why Panasonic, or their lens subcontractor, would object.

[andybarton]

 

Andy you say " Frank has to say......by selling cheap M gear below cost" ...where have I said that selling below cost ( apart from during initial production ramp up) is what I suggest as Leica's long term future.

Sorry but you are guilty of misquoting me, which is what you have accused me of in the past.

 

I am not misquoting you.

 

 

That leaves Leica free to go after say a 5% share of a new market that wants a camera that meets the following criteria:

• Price of body £1000
  
• Price of each Summarit lens ..about £500 (when bought as a kit)
  
• Total kit price of camera with a 35mm 50mm and 75mm £2500
  
• Full Frame plastic body M that accepts all old Leica glass
  
• Auto exposure, Rangefinder
  
• Size and weight ....more compact than the DSLR's
  
• Reliable camera supported by Leica after sales support.
  

I know that the Summarit lenses retail at £950 (35mm 75mm, 90mm) £770 (50mm) today individually. However maybe Leica should become more aggressive on their pricing for these entry level products.

 

You are the one that wants Leica to sell 3 Summarit lenses for £1500. Or have you forgotten that strategy already?

[nhabedi]

Leica's main buyers are collectors, technically skilled photographers and people who have aspired to own a Leica which they see as being one of the best camera brands.

 

Leica customers have endured/suffered the teething problems and long waiting periods for the new digital M's - or - Leica has a loyal customer base who will put up with the 'issues' we face in brining new products to the market.

 

That's how I read it, and can't say I find anything too far off the mark in that.

 

We're coming back to the same arguments again and again. That's how you read it. (Or that's probably how you read Google's translation or what others have said here.) But it's not what he has said. Again: He did not talk about "technically skilled photographers". He didn't even mention photography, but instead talked about technology enthusiasts which is really something totally different - and what I and others have issues with.

 

(Yeah, it's only a short interview, but after all it's the CEO of the company talking to a newspaper with nationwide distribution. Given that most of the discussions on this forum are about rumors, complaints, or wishes, this is probably at least as relevant...)

[ho_co]

For Frank's information, if he went to Solms and did the factory tour (something I think is essential for the future well being of the company) he will be able to ask Leica how they QC their "Panasonic" lenses. He will be told (as we were) that Leica have staff in the far east, checking lens quality on the Leica badged versions of the Lumix lenses. ...

Thanks, Andy. That's information for Frank and Howard.

 

I haven't made the Solms tour, and I stand corrected.

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[Guest BigSplash]

Frank,

 

Zeiss have inspectors in Cosina and used to have in Kyocera as well. I used to be a beta tester for Contax and would hear the stories of the "Vario-Sonnars at dawn" dramas that used to occur there. At one point some Zeiss people were saying that the Zeiss inspectors were rejecting some 75 to 80% of the N series lenses that Kyocera built. A tad of friction in the relationship between Zeiss and Kyocera ensued. After the beta test panel totally slated the final luxury titanium Contax sub-miniature digital, as being wholly unsalable (the U4R), the relationship broke down totally. Strangely enough, the entire warehouse full of U4R's in Hamburg, burnt down to the ground the next week - funny that.

 

Wilson

Wilson very interesting and you confirm my point ..!

Obviously Zeiss know how to handle a subcontract relationship and have specialists on site. When they reject stuff the relationship gets tough.

I would add when my guys did this with Kyocera for IC packaging we had "specialist" product engineers that were part of a continuous improvement team that was appreciated as we worked together to improve yields.. We had people on final test, others on fine leak packaging tests, lead frame etc. as we ramped up volumes.

I seriously doubt that Leica have that level of QC at Panasonic for each new product that is ramped up. If they did we would most likely hear about the daily frictions that you experienced.

[Guest BigSplash]

I am not misquoting you.

You are the one that wants Leica to sell 3 Summarit lenses for £1500. Or have you forgotten that strategy already?

 

You are misquoting me , I have never said that "Leica should be selling cheap M gear below cost" ( apart from during initial production ramp up) as Leica's long term future".

 

You also continue to mix up retail price and cost to produce when you look at my desire to sell 3 Summarit lenses at £1500 and a plastic body at £1000. If Leica cannot make a handsome profit at those prices, shipped in volumes for f2.5 none asph lenses then you are correct and they had better figure out how the Japanese achieve prices much lower than this.

If Leica does not have a vehicle to get into producing volumes then they will have to remain a luxury brand like Hermes had hoped for and that ended in tears. Low volumes means lack of supplier attention as Herr Spilling noted, poor prices from suppliers, no learning curve, hand built products small profit on high priced goods, dwindling market, and no money for R&D.

I guess the rich snobs will not care as they can still buy a M10 a la carte with red lizzard skin, gold plated top, and the family crest engraved alongside the Leica logo. Great!