gogopix Posted February 10, 2010 Author Share #21 Posted February 10, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi Victor Whereabouts in Ireland are you off to? The light in the late evenings there is spectacular at that time of year especially when it's been raining, which it always has! I am sure David will find a way of kitting you out. By then there should be 35mm and 120mm lenses available and some or even all of the CS versions too. The 35mm should make a great landscape lens and I suspect that for many, great though the 180 is, the 120 will be the ideal portrait and macro lens combined. Which system will you take as your backup? Best Tim Tim Connamarra and Galway Bay for a week of trekking the hills and cliffs, also then a tour south to coast back to waterford area then back up to Dublin along coast to get to some of the 'great houses'. We do 2-3 euro trips a years, and this will be our 16th or 17 th trek (lose count at my age) anyway, thinking of taking the S2 and the Alpa/P65+ as backup (35 and 47mm). Victor PS: David, can you put me down? say S2 and a couple of lenses? (Rent toward buy, obviously, yes? :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 Hi gogopix, Take a look here What the heck is going on? Leica?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
dfarkas Posted February 10, 2010 Share #22 Posted February 10, 2010 Tim Connamarra and Galway Bay for a week of trekking the hills and cliffs, also then a tour south to coast back to waterford area then back up to Dublin along coast to get to some of the 'great houses'. We do 2-3 euro trips a years, and this will be our 16th or 17 th trek (lose count at my age) anyway, thinking of taking the S2 and the Alpa/P65+ as backup (35 and 47mm). Victor PS: David, can you put me down? say S2 and a couple of lenses? (Rent toward buy, obviously, yes? :-) Victor, Of course. 100% rental fee towards purchase, as always. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 10, 2010 Share #23 Posted February 10, 2010 I played with an S2 briefly yesterday (funny that my dealer has a demo S2 but no demo M9 - telling). Not impressed. Not that I could ever afford it anyways but even if I could for that amount of money I would look elsewhere and get a whole system. I thought it actually very uncomfortable in the hand - grip was too big at bottom and narrow at top. Maybe that's just me but not at all comfortable like my D3. Honestly for $30,000 it can be the simplest thing like this that will make one consider long and hard. Had the same issue with the bottom of the grip. I put that in my review actually Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogopix Posted February 10, 2010 Author Share #24 Posted February 10, 2010 people gripe about the grip (sic! :-0 ) on other cameras as well; the M8 and M9 have separate grips (talk about expensive bent tin! LOL ). This is why many, esp. Guy in his review suggest actually trying and 'getting the feel' of a camera. Same probably true of menues and other ergonomic aspects. That said, I wonder how many people, in the end, decide on these factors? Isn't it just luck of the draw, what fits and doesn't? Now wedding or PJ or sports pro - wow I gotta imagine it could almost affect composition, but for tripod work, who cares. Tim, just curious; how does th S2 'feel' in your hands? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted February 10, 2010 Share #25 Posted February 10, 2010 And the beat goes on. Leica seems a lightening rod for controversy. The penalty for going their own way I suppose. Same as always, so why the surprise? I know many professional photographers, just because they don't participate on THIS forum, doesn't mean they don't at all. BTW, most that I know do not have bleeding edge gear either ... they are smarter businessmen and women than that. That is the domain of well healed amateurs, some brave Pros, and camera sales people ... and there is nothing wrong with that at all. On the flip side, one of the busiest and most successful Pros I know uses a couple of older multishot MFD cams and a brace of 5Ds. This or that "Kills" the S2 ... or conversely, the S2 "blows away" this or that ... is nonsense. All these systems are so good now that it is minutia and personal preference being histrionically brought to the level of life or death. If I were Leica, I wouldn't utter a peep until I was ready to say something of value. I'm sure they have their reasons for playing it close to the vest. My BIGGER question is where the heck is the second M9 that I ordered forever ago? I need a back-up to do my paying work. BTW, I haven't heard a peep about the H4D/60 that I've had on order for months and months either. -Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
c6gowin Posted February 11, 2010 Share #26 Posted February 11, 2010 I am one of those who has been reluctant to post anything in the S2 forum due to the caustic climate here. Well, I expect that to change soon. I received my S2 yesterday (thank you David Farkas) and I plan to share my experience with it here. Tim has been great to post his experience with the S2 and I am hopeful there will be more S2 owners posting soon so that the tone of the S2 forum shifts from "killer" mode to "helpful" mode. I know I will need help as this my first foray into digital MF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitz Posted February 11, 2010 Share #27 Posted February 11, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Leica needs to produce SOMETHING you can actually buy. M9, M lenses, full S2 system, whatever. You can't use a camera system you can't buy. You can't even get an estimate of when you can buy it from even the best dealers like Dale. Since September, there has been no information out of Solms. Everything is top secret. "Trust us. We'll call you when we get around to building it and are ready to take your money (or the money the dealer is holding from you)." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 11, 2010 Share #28 Posted February 11, 2010 Well I will step out than if I am perceived as some type of advisory to the S2 which i am not but what I am and will not do is bow to marketing BS that I see everyday here. So with that I will leave this religion behind and go home . I have no patience for that fever and no agenda whatsoever. I don't get a penny from anyone and that includes Leica, Phase and Hassy. I really have no dog in any fight and honestly some of the stuff i read here makes me want to rip the hood ornament off the front of the car. Have fun and Mark enjoy your S2 if you need help you know where to find me but the last time i actually listened to a sales guy was the last time I cared about my money. Take care folks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted February 11, 2010 Share #29 Posted February 11, 2010 I have just taken delivery of the S2-P with ... eventually the 350 mm when it is finally released... Stay tuned for more in the weeks to come... I'm looking forward to reading your posts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
c6gowin Posted February 11, 2010 Share #30 Posted February 11, 2010 Thank you Guy, I am pretty excited about getting the S2. For what its worth, I don't see you as an S2 adversary. You have been good to present your vision of Leica's problems with the S2 and its strengths based on actual use of the camera. Frankly, I agree with most of the things you have cited as problems with the S2 rollout. Its just that most of them don't apply to me. I have spent considerable time and expense (traveling to trade shows and demo shoots) over the last year researching my digital MF purchase. I am well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of the available systems. I chose the S2 with eyes wide open. It is also worth pointing out that David was supportive in whatever purchase decision I chose. He never tried to sell me on the S2. Actually, I think he was very surprised that I ended up following through with my initial pre-order. I was on the fence up to the last moment and he never tried to push me one way or the other. I really appreciate that. Guy, I also appreciate your offer to help. That is the Guy I got to know on the Leica Germany trip and have seen on the forums for years. I think the biggest adjustment for me will be getting used to the depth of field and being mindful of the need for higher shutter speeds. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted February 11, 2010 Share #31 Posted February 11, 2010 I have just taken delivery of the S2-P with 70 mm lens EBS Congrats on the new camera! I am one of those who has been reluctant to post anything in the S2 forum due to the caustic climate here. Well, I expect that to change soon. I received my S2 yesterday (thank you David Farkas) and I plan to share my experience with it here. Tim has been great to post his experience with the S2 and I am hopeful there will be more S2 owners posting soon so that the tone of the S2 forum shifts from "killer" mode to "helpful" mode. I know I will need help as this my first foray into digital MF. Congrats on the camera! 2 in one thread...this is great Ok now, I'm going to be the one to be considered caustic for simply stating the obvious truth. The S2 is an "exclusive" camera system which means "not for everybody." My understanding is that Leica is only aiming to sell about 1000 S2s per year. Hopefully sales will end up being much more than that, but in the first years could actually be a bit less. Anyway, one thing is for certain, S2 owners are going to be a bit lonely, misunderstood and overwhelmed in comparison to the sheer numbers of owners of other camera systems. The hopes for a positive and helpful internet experience taking place surrounding the S2 in an open and democratic forum environment is probably a bit utopian. My suggestion is that S2 owners pull together and put some kind of group together that requires some kind of proof of ownership to post (serial #s or pictures or something?). This will help weed out all the useless conversations that will inevitably come up where the guys with Nikons come in and say their Dwhatever does the same thing...and of course might weed out some of the college kids taking pictures of graffiti in alleyways who in their infinite wisdom naturally know more than commercial studio owners. We all know how that works out. Exclusive means not for everybody....nothing to be embarassed about. Who knows, maybe Seal Song would like to contribute to a dedicated S2 users group too...that would be pretty damn cool! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest farbtupfer Posted February 11, 2010 Share #32 Posted February 11, 2010 My suggestion is that S2 owners pull together and put some kind of group together that requires some kind of proof of ownership to post (serial #s or pictures or something?). Thats ridiculous - what an undemocratic proposal... so the S2 just for snobs...:-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted February 11, 2010 Share #33 Posted February 11, 2010 Congrats on the new camera! Congrats on the camera! 2 in one thread...this is great Ok now, I'm going to be the one to be considered caustic for simply stating the obvious truth. The S2 is an "exclusive" camera system which means "not for everybody." My understanding is that Leica is only aiming to sell about 1000 S2s per year. Hopefully sales will end up being much more than that, but in the first years could actually be a bit less. Anyway, one thing is for certain, S2 owners are going to be a bit lonely, misunderstood and overwhelmed in comparison to the sheer numbers of owners of other camera systems. The hopes for a positive and helpful internet experience taking place surrounding the S2 in an open and democratic forum environment is probably a bit utopian. My suggestion is that S2 owners pull together and put some kind of group together that requires some kind of proof of ownership to post (serial #s or pictures or something?). This will help weed out all the useless conversations that will inevitably come up where the guys with Nikons come in and say their Dwhatever does the same thing...and of course might weed out some of the college kids taking pictures of graffiti in alleyways who in their infinite wisdom naturally know more than commercial studio owners. We all know how that works out. Exclusive means not for everybody....nothing to be embarassed about. Who knows, maybe Seal Song would like to contribute to a dedicated S2 users group too...that would be pretty damn cool! That is a good idea and from experience it works. Frankly, none of these Medium Format systems are for everyone, and are subject to interruptive dialog that is basically useless to those who have and use any given system. There is a Yahoo group that Nick T started for users of Hasselblad Digital cameras from all over the world, and they simply help one another solve problems, share experiences, information and resources without all the defensive posturing and fending off of trolls. That knowledge base is invaluable. Now, Hasselblad is starting its own site specifically for owners that will expand on that concept ... which was part of the recent announcement surrounding the launch of the H4D/40. S2 owners should just get on with making photographs. They made their decision and the die is cast ... so it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or says does it? -Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted February 11, 2010 Share #34 Posted February 11, 2010 That is a good idea and from experience it works. Frankly, none of these Medium Format systems are for everyone, and are subject to interruptive dialog that is basically useless to those who have and use any given system. Yes, that's true. There is a Yahoo group that Nick T started for users of Hasselblad Digital cameras from all over the world, and they simply help one another solve problems, share experiences, information and resources without all the defensive posturing and fending off of trolls. That knowledge base is invaluable. Now, Hasselblad is starting its own site specifically for owners that will expand on that concept ... which was part of the recent announcement surrounding the launch of the H4D/40. that is an excellent example of the idea at work S2 owners should just get on with making photographs. They made their decision and the die is cast ... so it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or says does it? -Marc Your last sentence just summed it all up perfectly...There are already plenty of places for people to go to learn about the S2 and hear all of the pros/cons etc. But what is really needed now is a place for S2 owners to go that can become a helpful resource and support for a decision that has already been made. OT a bit and this post isn't directed to fotografz but is just a general observation - the thing that really disturbs me is the overall "tone" of the discussions of the S2 on the internet. There are great posters like DFarkas and Tashley that are willing to share and the thanks they get all too often is to be treated like a defendant at a trial. There is a prosecutorial tone in a lot of the "discussions" in these open forums that is completely counter-productive to S2 owners. Some might think it's constructive criticism...(some of it is)...some might think it's the snobbery of class warfare...(some of it is)....But my experience in photography is something different. There is a phrase that isn't too popular nowadays that I believe sums up the current state of the photographic craft in general. The phrase is "degenerate art." There is what I percieve to be a sort of war against technical excellence currently present in the arts and it manifests itself in attacks against symbols of technical excellence. Those that strive for technical excellence are attacked. Those that attempt perfection are attacked. Many of the most popular and profitable photographers of today are little more than propagandists with little real respect or understanding for the technical craft of photography. The S2 represents an attempt at truly high standards for the digital photographic medium and it is quite frankly going head-on against the spirit of the degenerate age in which we currently find ourselves immersed. I believe that a solid majority of the negativity projected towards the S2 is actually a hostility towards perfection and excellence in general by those that are all too happy being mediocre. From what I understand, Leica invested somewhere in the neighborhood of 35-36 million dollars into the production of the S2. Many people at Leica seemed to have poured their heart and soul into this system. The S2 is more than just a camera. It is a contribution of excellence that has been made to the technical craft of photography in general. They should be commended for what they have produced. They should not be treated like defendants at a trial. The battle for the soul is won and lost in the arts. Some of this might sound a bit over-dramatic but then again it might be even closer to the truth than many would really like to admit. BTW - the war against excellence isn't just present in the arts...It's evident in all aspects of society...from public school to the corporate world to government and finance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted February 11, 2010 Share #35 Posted February 11, 2010 ... Anyway, one thing is for certain, S2 owners are going to be a bit lonely, misunderstood and overwhelmed in comparison to the sheer numbers of owners of other camera systems... R users have gotten used to it An S-only forum seems like a fine idea, if it come to pass I'd hope that for the sake of those who have yet to use the S system the forum would be readable by non-owners. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted February 11, 2010 Share #36 Posted February 11, 2010 I kind of agree with The Gentleman above, though it can be very hard to work out where the aggression is really coming from. For example, in response to my clearly ironically named thread 'S2 as a vacation Poin'n'Shoot' I received the following PM, which I have asterisked in one place so as to abide by forum rules. I have also deleted the signature, since the person concerned sent it by forum PM and is therefore presumably desirous of maintaining their anonymity. "I don't want to get in a public p*****g contest with you, but it appears to me that your posts about the S2 have jumped the shark. Of course, unlike you, I'm not the sort of highly skilled photog that the camera requires. Maybe your posts, like your skills, are so far above me that I just don't get them. Where I come from, spending tens of thousands of pounds on a camera to take snaps isn't something to be bragged about. To each his own." I replied: "I can't begin to unravel this, so I won't. " I then proceeded happily not to try to unravel it. Frankly I thought it was just weird. But then I read GV's post above and it reminded me of this little piece of nastiness and set me wondering, what was it all about? Was it some form of financial jealousy? A sort of shot in some misconceived class war? A daft misreading of the nature of the thread that spawned it? Why does this person hang around this forum and spike people if he doesn't like people who buy relatively expensive cameras? He is clearly being rude about my opinion of my own photography (all the S2 shots I've posted I have described as 'educated snapshots' so I can't see that I've been immodest) and that might imply that GV is correct: that what this aggressive correspondent is motivated by is a dislike of technical excellence (in the gear not the photographer)? I have been rather bewildered by the threads in the S2 forum - genuinely surprised at just how aggressive so many posts have been. At one point I pretty much decided to withdraw, as I have largely done from other places at times, but then I thought 'WTF, I want to share what I'm learning - and by sharing, learn more, and if that enrages some people, well, they can go deal with their rage.' I want to add BTW that there is one poster here who IMHO has been very punchy but not unconstructively aggressive to me. That is Guy, who BTW is certainly not the sender of the email I quote above. He has been very helpful to a lot of people over the years, me included, and though he and I see the S2 rather differently and have no doubt irritated each other in some of these threads, his core point, which is that for many professionals the S2 system is not yet complete enough to use as their main or core system, is IMHO a perfectly fair one. As for the 'closed forum' for S2 owners only, it's sort of tempting, but for my 2 cents I'd rather have an open discussion, with all the problems that brings, while we all collectively contribute to an our individual understandings of the camera. After that, an owners area for purely technical tip-sharing might be very fine. There have been so many times that I have been late to buy a piece of gear and the decision has been really helped by hovering near early adopters. Having that opportunity can be really useful and I'd hate to deny it to those who want to engage constructively. Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted February 11, 2010 Share #37 Posted February 11, 2010 From what I understand, Leica invested somewhere in the neighborhood of 35-36 million dollars into the production of the S2. Many people at Leica seemed to have poured their heart and soul into this system. The S2 is more than just a camera. It is a contribution of excellence that has been made to the technical craft of photography in general. They should be commended for what they have produced. They should not be treated like defendants at a trial. You are right, but the market is like a trial. And it isn't easy to escape alive. The S2 is a great camera. Hasselblad's CEO said this is the camera they would have wanted to make, but they didn't. They were prisoners of the 645 format and film photography. The business model for expensive MF systems is not the same of mass-produced cameras, including 24x36 format "pro" cameras. The MF cameras are produced in small quantities, and the costs of distribution and support are high. Therefore, the margins are also high, and the prices cannot be low. Only big studios or rental houses may recover the investment of these cameras, including Hasselblad full frame 645 cameras, Phase One 645 backs or Leica's S2 camera. Leica has an advantage: rich aficionados will buy it, no matter the price. The model business based on volume is totally different, and this includes the Canon and Nikon's pro cameras. Margins, distribution and support, investment recover model, etc are totally different. The problem is if a MF system may play the high volume model. It is not easy. Phase One/Mamiya/Leaf are trying, and Hasselblad is trying too (with the new H4-D). Pentax will present the new 645D, and Mamiya may resurrect the ZD camera. These cameras are far more affordable, but... the margin per unit has to be much lower, and the number of units sold has to be large enough. It is not sure a success business terms in those low price/high volume MF cameras. They are being combined with high margin/low volumen cameras of the same system/mount, and this is an advantage; but it forces to use cropped sensors and expensive lenses for the "cheap" models, and this is a problem when you are competing against 24x36 systems. There aren't easy solutions to this puzzle. Leica has a strategy, and the S system is desirable and very well designed (a technical success). They have room for price changes, if they need it. They may go for a high volumen model later... Lets see what happens to Pentax, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusperkins Posted February 11, 2010 Share #38 Posted February 11, 2010 Very interesting thread here. It's safe to say the posts from Tim and Guy have been open, honest and extremely helpful to anybody considering buying into, or passing the system by. For every odd message you guys might get, there'll be an awful lot more quietly gaining useful knowledge, and are no doubt very grateful for it. The S2 is definitely not for me, at least not for now, and I thank Tim and Guy in particular, and one or two others for helping me make that decision. However, I wonder if some of the more aggressive comments come from people who have been led to believe Leica make perfect systems, as in perfect within the parameters of their design, when they clearly are not. Naturally nothing is ever perfect, but one can be forgiven for expecting a little more from Leica given the claims made by many Leica enthusiasts. As a hardcore Leica user - in the past at least, I have personally been very disappointed with recent products. For me they've simply been frustrating and unreliable in comparison to their film Ms which have been, and continue to be, reliable and very dependable. However, when one looks at the true complexities of digital technology (even giants like Canon have struggled in the past), Leica is in fact doing rather well given their size. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted February 11, 2010 Share #39 Posted February 11, 2010 A lot of the anti-Leica undercurrent particularly with regard to the S2 simply comes from Leica's pricing. Imagine how many people would stump up for an S2 if it was 65% of its current price and then there would be a good number of positive posts. Most of the negative comments come from those who dont have the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted February 11, 2010 Share #40 Posted February 11, 2010 The Leica Shop in WPB, Florida, USA has an S2 in stock which I got to snap a few pics with -- very nice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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