What the heck is going on? Leica?

[gogopix]

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Here we are in the LUF S2 forum; of the top 10 threads, the "this is an S2 killer" or "why would anyone..." etc threads have 30, 40 70 m, 80+ [posts!

The "new images with S2..." "S2 in..." have 2, 4 11 posts at BEST.

 

What is ...'s name is going on?

 

Tim Ashley shows some impressive shots; Luminous Landscape has a "Wow, but.." ok so even the M8 and DMR had problems. But this is eirie.I'm 67 YO, been doing photography since 8 YO... I have NEVER seen such a bizzare launch . Heck, even the Contax N Digital got more favorable press.

 

I don't mean to challenge the criticisms; what boggles my mind is the silence on the Leica side, and the S2 user end (except Tim, who has given us some pretty good indication of what this camera can do, and it's pretty damn good!)

 

I have over $50k dropped in Phase backs alone. Here is a fantastic new product, 39MP, AF, weather sealed and better noise than most backs. And half the price. Yet it is treated "DOA"

 

Can somebody explain? Am I the only one "out of the know"?

 

If Leica believes there is a problem, then fix it, FAST. If not, can we get some 'buzz; going? The latest? Two Leica dealers dropping Leica line over no sales on the S2... after 10 pre-orders. Is this true? If it is NOT true, can someone call the poster on it?

 

Victor

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[ptomsu]

Not sure what is really happening, but I would think it is a combination of multiple facts which do not support the S System:

 

1) economical situation is still really bad - people do not have enough money or are not willing to spend money as easily as a few years ago

 

2) Leica has absolutely NO reputation in this high end camera pro sector

 

3) The launch was really weird - announcing the product so early and then not being able to deliver

 

4) Leica have a great reputation in messing up new digital products - DMR and M8 - and many who bought into Leica digital and trusted are no longer doing this and just wait till most bugs are fixed

 

5) There is no real S System available - 3 lenses are just not enough for most pro users.

 

6) The S System is priced to high - a H4D 40MP is cheaper. And for sure better from a system point of view. So why buy into Leica???

 

7) Leica does not have their own post processing SW, which is imparative for best results as we are used from Hasselblad or Phase.

 

Could go on and on with that list, but this is for sure big part of the truth and answer to your question

[Bo_Lorentzen]

Hmm, yeah pretty much what ptomsu said.

 

As far as the camera goes, personally I have no doubts about its performance and that it can deliver what it is expected to do.

 

But there are a lot of parts waiting to materialize, its rather a bit early to pick up a "system" quite yet.

 

guessing the S2 BUZZ is going to materialize a bit slower as the parts mature and more people pick up units.

 

.

[tashley]

There's another explanation possible: that quite a few high-end pros are getting in to the system and that they're not the sort of people who post shots or opinions on fora. In other words there might be a quiet but booming market going on. Just a thought...

[t024484]

There's another explanation possible: that quite a few high-end pros are getting in to the system and that they're not the sort of people who post shots or opinions on fora. In other words there might be a quiet but booming market going on. Just a thought...

I really hope you are right.

 

There are so many unfortunate postings on the S2 and sometimes really aggresive.

Leica is struggling to survive, and is trying whatever helps them to reach their targets.

I think it is a fair marketing approach to use the strategy: "If you can't sell, confuse."

 

So even if they have a lot of products under way that can't be supplied yet, it would be a big mistake not to tell the market that they are working on those products.

To mention that the S2 is not a "real" MF or that their concept is leading to a dead end, is an opinion that everyone has to make for himself, but to batter the baby to death before it had the change to show itself in full extent is quite annoying.

 

Hans

[Guest farbtupfer]

To mention that the S2 is not a "real" MF or that their concept is leading to a dead end, is an opinion that everyone has to make for himself, but to batter the baby to death before it had the change to show itself in full extent is quite annoying.

 

But would you invest in a product as a pro if you can't buy all you need...?

[rosuna]

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I think the S2 is a great product. Hasselblad or Mamiya/Phase are linked to the 645 format, and it requires quite large sensors, and this means quite high prices. Sensors with crop factors (Hassel's new H4-D) are irritating. The newly defined system of Leica is a great idea.

 

The only problem with Leica is the price (ptomsu's point 6). It is a very sexy camera, but the strongest point of a new system like that would be the price, in order to be competitive against 24x36 professional cameras.

 

I agree with other very, very serious problems pointed to by ptomsu, specially 4) and 2). The M8 had a lot of problems, but the M9 have had many as well.

 

Number 5) is a real reason for a slow adoption, but it takes time to solve it.

[tashley]

I really hope you are right.

 

Hans

 

Me too! You'll understand that as an early S2 adopter I was basically placing a bet on the future availability of an expanded system so... but I do actually think that the chances are very high that it'll do very well. Interesting thread hereabouts from the blogging red carpet dude. He's not very interested in the technology details. To him it's just a DSLR with great file quality and a really big sensor and for some uses, that's exactly what it feels like...

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Bottom line it's NOT a system yet. I don't care what Pro is shooting it but they have a complete system that they use for commerce and the S2 is a side kick. Just that simple, All this time and 2 lenses and no data on firmware updates , exactly WHEN the next lens appears and everything Peter said. I would be insane to buy this right now. Tim love ya but you have a Phase system you simply can NOT sell right now to cover your ass. It's almost 10 grand more than a Hassy with normal lens and 6 grand more than my Phase P40+ with a full system, software and the whole lot behind it for both Hassy and Phase. Sexy does not get the job done, we need work horses this simply is not it YET.

 

Bottom line the S2 is a nice cam i tested the crap out of it and it is going to be a nice system to have for someone that is NOT depending on revenue from it and can wait it out for it to become a system. There is not a Pro willing to buy into it like that today without a system they are already using for commerce. It simply is not ready for us working Pro's. For the hobbyist that can wait it out because that is what Leica themselves has done is not get all parts out in a timely manner for release and been deadly silent on what is next than that is they way it is. The hobbyist with the money that wants a Leica like this will wait good for them BUT the way this was released leica will not get full PR from working Pros.

 

There I said what I wanted to say for months and said pretty much to them. There is simply not enough STUFF to make me switch and that is the bottom line for a lot of working Pro's. This falls squarely on Leica sorry but you want honest answers that is it.

[gogopix]

Bottom line it's NOT a system yet. I don't care what Pro is shooting it but they have a complete system that they use for commerce and the S2 is a side kick. Just that simple, All this time and 2 lenses and no data on firmware updates , exactly WHEN the next lens appears and everything Peter said. I would be insane to buy this right now. Tim love ya but you have a Phase system you simply can NOT sell right now to cover your ass...... Sexy does not get the job done, we need work horses this simply is not it YET.

...

This falls squarely on Leica sorry but you want honest answers that is it.

 

The PRO position is understandable, to a point. ALL systems have build up

Mamyia promised Leaf shutters.. hmmmm.. YEARS

Hasselblad SW... years to get right..lenses that only work on some bodies...

Phase... live view... sensor + ALMOST A YEAR later

... on and on

 

As a PRO in ANYTHING who would go out without testing? becoming familiar with etc (shakedown cruise..)

 

Tim is doing it right... breaking it in

Other pros are gutzy... taking the S2 with one lens and getting great shots

 

all sounds reasonable to me. What is not reasonable is the reaction.

 

Guy, remmeber the electrical tape on the DMR wheel? Michael R's 'exploding hassey lens"? Leaf's bipolar images?

 

The answers here are good, and I can see more from what YOU all said why YOU have reacted.. but Leica... is this one of those "Silence is Golden.." times?

 

Victor

 

PS I am pleased at least a few of you see the anti-S comments as 'aggressive' They are.. and inappropriate at this stage in a product life. I would give it to June (when I plan to talk David into renting me an S2 for an Ireland shoot. and yes, I will be taking a second system.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

No question stuff takes time to develop and settle in and Hassy , Phase , Nikon and canon all went through there growing pains. I am not on Leica's case on vertical columns and firmware as such but firmware that does not have continuous filing numbering out of the gate is crazy, you know how dangerous that is and easy to wipe a whole card off. I have yet to hear they fixed that and that was months ago. I'm not here to hurt leica far from it but I see gapping holes that seriously need to be filled.I don't need to go further i have been through this enough . I don't want to hear about aggressive talk that is BS that is the only way to get these things fixed and people be honest . I never said anything out of line against any OEM but i will not lie either.

[georg]

The S-System is a professional system and the Leica-forum and 99% of it's users aren't professionals in this market. So we have more people talking about stuff they know very little about than people who actually could say anything about the S-System.

[tashley]

 

I would give it to June (when I plan to talk David into renting me an S2 for an Ireland shoot. and yes, I will be taking a second system.

 

Hi Victor

 

Whereabouts in Ireland are you off to? The light in the late evenings there is spectacular at that time of year especially when it's been raining, which it always has!

 

I am sure David will find a way of kitting you out. By then there should be 35mm and 120mm lenses available and some or even all of the CS versions too. The 35mm should make a great landscape lens and I suspect that for many, great though the 180 is, the 120 will be the ideal portrait and macro lens combined.

 

Which system will you take as your backup?

 

Best

 

Tim

[dfarkas]

I'll be happy to give my perspective as a Leica Professional Dealer, not to mention someone who has been covering the S2 since its announcement, done a full review of the camera, have had in-depth discussions with product managers and engineers, and has shot almost 3000 images with the S2 in various stages of development (prototype, pre-production, production).

 

I have been actively discussing the S2 with photographers for over a year now. I've heard many different perspectives as to why these people prefer (or don't prefer) a camera like the S2 for the type for work they do. It has certainly been very interesting to me to hear these different viewpoints, and how divergent they can be from the attitudes expressed online.

 

We have already received two shipments of S2 bodies and 70mm lenses, which have been sent to customers who have pre-ordered with us. The response has been extremely positive. I have sold systems to both serious amateurs and professionals alike. Most top-end working commercial photographers don't have the time or inclination to post on camera forums (although they do read on occasion). Other customers who have received the S2 and do frequent the forums have expressed to me that they are reluctant to post because they don't wish to subject themselves to the harshness of many of the online critics, some of whom have valid points, and others who either seem to have an agenda to push or just enjoy stirring up controversy.

 

Of course, we are all waiting to hear when the other lenses will be available (and trust me, no one has been more vocal than me in asking for a final roll-out schedule). The latest update from the S2 specialist in the US is that we can expect this information within the next week or so. Some of my customers are waiting for lenses other than the 70mm (35 and 120 is a popular combination) and some are waiting until ALL the lenses are available. Everyone's needs are different.

 

There are also a fair amount of people ready to test drive the S2 before making a final decision. Having received our demo S2, our S2 Test Drive program is already underway.

 

Leica is fully aware of things that need tweaking in firmware. In fact, they have actively solicited feedback from everyone who has tested the camera. I provided them a detailed list based on my experience and customer feedback from our time with a production camera in November. I know that other dealers, testers, and professionals have provided very similar feedback.

 

From my perspective, the S2 launch has been successful so far and I'm confident that the S system will continue to develop and mature over the coming months.

 

David

[tashley]

Most top-end working commercial photographers don't have the time or inclination to post on camera forums (although they do read on occasion).

 

I couldn't agree more - this is very clear from my experience here in the UK.

 

Other customers who have received the S2 and do frequent the forums have expressed to me that they are reluctant to post because they don't wish to subject themselves to the harshness of many of the online critics, some of whom have valid points, and others who either seem to have an agenda to push or just enjoy stirring up controversy.

 

 

I have received emails from people in a similar situation who want to share opinions or ask for advice but who explicitly say that the tone of talk here and elsewhere has been so aggressive that they want no part in it. This is a real pity..

 

 

Leica is fully aware of things that need tweaking in firmware. In fact, they have actively solicited feedback from everyone who has tested the camera. I provided them a detailed list based on my experience and customer feedback from our time with a production camera in November. I know that other dealers, testers, and professionals have provided very similar feedback.

 

From my perspective, the S2 launch has been successful so far and I'm confident that the S system will continue to develop and mature over the coming months.

 

David

 

The Leica UK guys and those in Solms have been a revaluation to me - after as much annoying M experience as the next man, I've been really pleased to see how open, communicative and responsive they are.

 

All of which is fantastic but as you say, we do need those lenses!

 

Tim

[stephengilbert]

I'd love to see a definition of the term "agenda" as used here. Do people who prefer other brands have an agenda when they criticize Leica? What about people who sell Leicas; any agenda there?

 

If Peter has an agenda based on his choosing to buy a Hasselblad, how about David, who'd like you to buy a Leica?

[stunsworth]

Do people who prefer other brands have an agenda when they criticize Leica?

 

Not always no, in fact most of the time they don't. Some look at a new camera, decide it's not for them and say why. Others look at a new camera and claim that it's not suitable for anyone. The final group contains the people who may have an agenda.

 

If you take every camera Leica have produced since this forum was set up, there have been voices saying that it's going to be a failure, or it it's going to be uncompetitive.

[delander †]

There are people who post on this forum whose posts have general tone of being anti-Leica. As a company they are producing unique products, the M, the S2 and now the X1. I reckon that the last year will be a successful one for them financially and it looks good for their future.

 

Jeff

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[esiegel]

I have just taken delivery of the S2-P with 70 mm lens; the 180mm is coming shortly, followed later by the 35mm CS and 120mm CS and, eventually the 350 mm when it is finally released. The entire setup took 5 min. and I was shooting immediately. Astoundingly easy to use, great form factor, very high quality images. Have been using 1ds MIII,m Hassy H3DII-39 and the S@ blows them all away. It IS truly sealed and fits like a glove in the hand.

 

Although expensive, it is the best compromise for my type of shooting-wildlife and landscapes in the Arctic/Antarctica; portraiture and fine art, in all kinds of weather.

 

Stay tuned for more in the weeks to come...

 

EBS

[charlesphoto99]

I played with an S2 briefly yesterday (funny that my dealer has a demo S2 but no demo M9 - telling). Not impressed. Not that I could ever afford it anyways but even if I could for that amount of money I would look elsewhere and get a whole system. I thought it actually very uncomfortable in the hand - grip was too big at bottom and narrow at top. Maybe that's just me but not at all comfortable like my D3. Honestly for $30,000 it can be the simplest thing like this that will make one consider long and hard.