Hasselblad's answer to S2

[dfarkas]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I'm curious as to why "only" 1/800 as fastest shutter speed in Hassy's? Is this because they're primarily designed for studio work? The S2's 1/4000 seems to offer more options. Ditto PhaseOne/Mamiya 645DF offering 1/4000 too. Is this to do with shutter / lens design? If so, just seems odd that Hasselblad's fastest shutter speed is 1/800th.

 

I know very little about MF though, so any info appreciated!

 

Thanks,

Jay

 

Jay,

 

The Hasselblad uses leaf shutters in the lenses and does not have a focal plane shutter in the body. Leaf shutters are more limited in terms of speed, but do offer the advantage of syncing with a flash at any shutter speed.

 

The Mamiya 645 and Leica S2 use a focal plane shutter in the body. Both systems will have leaf shutter lenses in the near future, allowing high flash sync in addition to the higher speed for available light photography.

 

The S2 also allows high speed focal plane syncing with the Leica SF58 flash up to 1/4000th of a sec.

 

David

[Jay101]

Interesting! Thanks for this info David.

 

J.

[jackart]

S2 took new approach, using both focal plane and central shutter for different needs. At first glance awkward in technical point of the view, but solution for MF shooters, needing 1/2000.

 

Jaak

[wlaidlaw]

Very sensible decision of Hassy to go with FW800 for tethering. I think Leica's decision to go with USB2 was a mistake. FW800 seems always to get much nearer its maximum 800 mbps than USB2 gets to its theoretical speed of 480 mbps (maybe because of the way USB accesses the internal bus). I know from personal experience, that even FW400 is far faster in practice than USB2 (more than double over a big data transfer).

 

I still suspect that you will have to take weight lifting classes to hump an H4D40 and a couple of lenses around for a whole day.

 

Wilson

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Jay,

 

The Hasselblad uses leaf shutters in the lenses and does not have a focal plane shutter in the body. Leaf shutters are more limited in terms of speed, but do offer the advantage of syncing with a flash at any shutter speed.

 

The Mamiya 645 and Leica S2 use a focal plane shutter in the body. Both systems will have leaf shutter lenses in the near future, allowing high flash sync in addition to the higher speed for available light photography.

 

The S2 also allows high speed focal plane syncing with the Leica SF58 flash up to 1/4000th of a sec.

 

David

 

To add:

 

The S2 and Phase DF body are focal plane shutters with maximum shutter speed to 1/4000 same tech as a Canon or Nikon in Focal plane shutter mode Sync speed is 1/125

 

Now with the Leaf lenses from both the S2 and Phase DF the sync speeds go up when using those lenses ( Leica calls these CS, Phase calls them LS)

 

S2 maximum sync speed is 1/500 . Phase DF body normally 1/800 but with the P40+ and P65+ those sync speeds will achieve 1/1600

 

 

Hassy is a different kettle of fish since all they use are Leaf lenses and top shutter speed is 1/800 and you can also sync at 1/800

 

Should be noted these sync speeds correlate more with real studio strobes and handheld portable flash at minimum to full power. So if your using a Profoto 2400 watt pack you can have full juice. I will skip the flash duration stuff since that is confusing from the camera at the moment. Basically flash duration needs to be shorter than shutter speed

 

Now the Leica SF58 is a portable flash and to achieve the high sync it reduces the power greatly to achieve quick flash duration. Nice for things that maybe close but it is at reduced power so doing a group shot for example would be much harder to get the coverage and power needed. But a head and shoulders shot maybe enough juice to balance sunlight and flash. Have to remember this is a very reduced power situation and the out of the portable flashes do not compare to the power of studio strobes. Something to be aware of. I know you can do the same with a Canon for instance and there portable flash units.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Very sensible decision of Hassy to go with FW800 for tethering. I think Leica's decision to go with USB2 was a mistake. FW800 seems always to get much nearer its maximum 800 mbps than USB2 gets to its theoretical speed of 480 mbps (maybe because of the way USB accesses the internal bus). I know from personal experience, that even FW400 is far faster in practice than USB2 (more than double over a big data transfer).

 

I still suspect that you will have to take weight lifting classes to hump an H4D40 and a couple of lenses around for a whole day.

 

Wilson

 

Need to read the weights of the systems which has been discussed that they are fairly close in weights when you put several lenses in a bag. Your going to need weight lifting classes regardless of MF system. At least some will, not a issue for me at all.

 

General comment

Folks please get facts. It absolutely drives me nuts when I hear these assumptions or missing data based on it's a Hassy or Phase and not a Leica. This is NOT a joke. These are very expensive systems and if your going to assume than you will waste 40k on a purchase. I'm here to help give you facts and not pull your middle leg. I used all of these systems at one time or another. I get these questions on a daily basis to help people decide what type of system works best for them.

 

Hassy use FW 800

Phase Uses FW 400

Leica S2 uses USB 2

 

Hassy may use FW 400 in some legacy backs have to check to be sure.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Wilson not directed at you but when I see threads of S2 killer and stupid stuff like that it is insane . Nothing kills anything, these systems have different features and abilities . We are never going to be able to compare a Gala Apple to a Gala Apple . One of them is going to be a Granny Smith Apple . There are three main MF systems out here of note I should add and none of them are exactly identical. Than you have Sinar and leaf backs in the mix. Makes for very tough comparisons on all kinds of levels.

 

What I see all the time on forums is discrediting one system over another. Those types of posts make buying decisions impossible for someone to make a educated decision on what works best for them and at these rates to get in the door than i consider it unfair to people.

[andybarton]

Surely the only way to find out what works best for you is to decide on your budget, walk into a decent dealer and ask to rent each system for a week.

 

Make your own mind up, not have someone else decide how you should spend your money.

 

It may be pocket money to some people, but to gain entry to any of these systems is as big a deal as buying a decent new car. You wouldn't buy a thirty grand car without a test drive, would you?

[rosuna]

Very sensible decision of Hassy to go with FW800 for tethering. I think Leica's decision to go with USB2 was a mistake. FW800 seems always to get much nearer its maximum 800 mbps than USB2 gets to its theoretical speed of 480 mbps (maybe because of the way USB accesses the internal bus). I know from personal experience, that even FW400 is far faster in practice than USB2 (more than double over a big data transfer).

 

I still suspect that you will have to take weight lifting classes to hump an H4D40 and a couple of lenses around for a whole day.

 

Wilson

 

FireWire will be replaced by other systems soon. Even Apple is preparing for USB3.0 and eSATA. Leica's decision isn't bad for the long term.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Totally agree Andy get the facts in your head than walk into a dealer try the system , try the software and see what works best for you. No one should read and buy. You need to try these things out. There is a lot involved in this type of purchase. Read the specs do the homework and try them out. Maybe the best advice i can give is don't be in a hurry try them. I actually like all three main systems but if I could blend all three together and get what I wanted from each. Now that would be great. Obviously that is not going to happen and it's all about compromise and what you can work with and what you cannot.

[wlaidlaw]

Wilson not directed at you but when I see threads of S2 killer and stupid stuff like that it is insane . Nothing kills anything, these systems have different features and abilities . We are never going to be able to compare a Gala Apple to a Gala Apple . One of them is going to be a Granny Smith Apple . There are three main MF systems out here of note I should add and none of them are exactly identical. Than you have Sinar and leaf backs in the mix. Makes for very tough comparisons on all kinds of levels.

 

What I see all the time on forums is discrediting one system over another. Those types of posts make buying decisions impossible for someone to make a educated decision on what works best for them and at these rates to get in the door than i consider it unfair to people.

 

Guy,

 

I hired an H2D-31 with zoom lens for a day for a special shoot of veteran cars, so tripod not practical. I stopped using it after about 45 minutes, as my back was killing me and went back to using my M8. Now I don't know if the H4D is appreciably lighter and maybe it is also to do with the shape/form of the Hassy. Having picked up and briefly played with an S2, it seemed lighter than I remember the H2D and I certainly have not got any stronger over the years. I know I was picking up the S2 with a 70 mm lens rather than the forthcoming zoom, which will no doubt be heavier. The point I was trying to make (maybe badly) in favour of the S2, was that I feel unless you are a big strong guy, the Hassy's are studio/tripod cameras against the S2, which should be comfortable both in a studio and wandering about. I do use MF but only film not digital and my Rolleiflex TLR's are quite light.

 

I agree that USB3 may be the future rather than FW but the S2 is USB2 not 3. Apple have also re-adopted FW800 on all their latest products after the huge row when they briefly dropped it. Another seldom mentioned benefit is the ability to daisy chain many FW devices, if they have two sockets.

 

Wilson

[rosuna]

Apple has filled a patent that adds some features of FW to USB3 (and the same for eSATA). It is related to chains of devices and target mode from USB3 and eSATA units. It points to a change in the interface for all Macs, from FW to USB3 and eSATA. USB2 will be compatible with USB3, and maybe USB2 devices will perform better on USB3 ports. Anyway, Leica may update the USB2 port of the S2 camera without a major redesign.

 

http://www.faq-mac.com/noticias/38313/apple-podria-dar-giro-implementacion-usb

 

http://www.applesfera.com/apple/una-nueva-patente-muestra-la-funcionalidad-target-mode-con-la-interfaz-esata

 

(Sorry, it is in Spanish, but you can find links to the English-written sources)

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Guy,

 

I hired an H2D-31 with zoom lens for a day for a special shoot of veteran cars, so tripod not practical. I stopped using it after about 45 minutes, as my back was killing me and went back to using my M8. Now I don't know if the H4D is appreciably lighter and maybe it is also to do with the shape/form of the Hassy. Having picked up and briefly played with an S2, it seemed lighter than I remember the H2D and I certainly have not got any stronger over the years. I know I was picking up the S2 with a 70 mm lens rather than the forthcoming zoom, which will no doubt be heavier. The point I was trying to make (maybe badly) in favour of the S2, was that I feel unless you are a big strong guy, the Hassy's are studio/tripod cameras against the S2, which should be comfortable both in a studio and wandering about. I do use MF but only film not digital and my Rolleiflex TLR's are quite light.

 

I agree that USB3 may be the future rather than FW but the S2 is USB2 not 3. Apple have also re-adopted FW800 on all their latest products after the huge row when they briefly dropped it. Another seldom mentioned benefit is the ability to daisy chain many FW devices, if they have two sockets.

 

Wilson

 

Not sure there is any real difference on the weight between the Hassy bodies themselves and it is a different shape over the S2 . Now I'm not sure on all the Hassy lenses and their weights and certainly could be heavier as well. Typically the Phase and Hassy body and backs are heavier than the S2 which is actually a light body . Now on the Phase my lenses where much lighter and the S2 the lenses are heavier and bigger. Between my back/body and lens I was maybe 2 ounces heavier. But when you start adding lenses things even out pretty much between the Phase and S2

 

I guess the best thing to do is pick out the three lenses and start adding in each system and see what that total number is. I have not dealt too much with Hassy so it is a little foreign to me as I use the Phase system. In the end it's still going to be a heavy bag. I carry my system in a Think Tank backpack. What's misleading in all this is the S2 body because it keeps getting used as the weight which obviously is pretty light what get's unsaid is the weight of the S2 lenses and size . So we have to be careful on these numbers because we honestly carry 3 or 4 lenses in total anyway.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Apple has filled a patent that adds some features of FW to USB3 (and the same for eSATA). It is related to chains of devices and target mode from USB3 and eSATA units. It points to a change in the interface for all Macs, from FW to USB3 and eSATA. USB2 will be compatible with USB3, and maybe USB2 devices will perform better on USB3 ports. Anyway, Leica may update the USB2 port of the S2 camera without a major redesign.

 

Apple podría dar un giro en su implementación USB | www.faq-mac.com

 

Una nueva patente muestra la funcionalidad "Target mode" con la interfaz eSATA

 

(Sorry, it is in Spanish, but you can find links to the English-written sources)

 

Honestly was not thrilled when I heard USB2 on the Leica S2 but if it can be changed to USB 3 than it was a good decision on Leica's end. Now hopefully things will change I just never had much luck with Mac's and USB.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Apple has filled a patent that adds some features of FW to USB3 (and the same for eSATA). It is related to chains of devices and target mode from USB3 and eSATA units. It points to a change in the interface for all Macs, from FW to USB3 and eSATA. USB2 will be compatible with USB3, and maybe USB2 devices will perform better on USB3 ports. Anyway, Leica may update the USB2 port of the S2 camera without a major redesign.

 

Apple podría dar un giro en su implementación USB | www.faq-mac.com

 

Una nueva patente muestra la funcionalidad "Target mode" con la interfaz eSATA

 

(Sorry, it is in Spanish, but you can find links to the English-written sources)

 

Not sure here but I thought there was talk of Firewire 800 ports being able to handle Firewire 1600 devices at the 1600 speeds.In this case obviously the Hassy 800 would not qualify since it is not a 1600 device but for drives and such

[rosuna]

Honestly was not thrilled when I heard USB2 on the Leica S2 but if it can be changed to USB 3 than it was a good decision on Leica's end. Now hopefully things will change I just never had much luck with Mac's and USB.

 

I don't like USB. FireWire is a far better design! But the better products don't win in all cases. Apple was too slow in promoting FW. Reading the articles about the patents, it seems that Apple is accepting USB and eSATA as the future interfaces, but they want to implement some features of FireWire, specially the target mode. I don't know if USB3 speeds would need a hardware or software update on the S2. Some features may be hardware-related though.

[tashley]

Minority report: I tend not to shoot off buffer-filling bursts so I quite like the USB2 on the S2 - it means I can tether to a Macbook Air in the field, which really helps the me add to the S2 system's weight saving when travelling. YMMV...

 

Tim

[Jack Flesher]

Just a quick comment on ports. Both FW400 and USB Std are far sturdier, more reliable connectors than FW800. FW800 can pop out of its socket pretty easy by comparison to USB or FW400. USB mini is not as good as USB Std, but still better than FW800 IMO. Next, FW400 and USB2 are basically the same speed, so no real advantage to either.

 

I thought I read FW1600 is going back to a snap-lock connector because of the FW800 fallout issues, but cannot be certain. Also USB3 is right around the corner too...

[mwilliamsphotography]

No issues with FW800 tether cords "popping out"... in fact I've never had one pop out. The best solution for safety sake and to relieve stress on the camera's port is to simply use a L shaped connector ... which Leaf had the good sense to supply with their Aptus backs.

 

Some cords like those from Paramount are really Heavy Duty and quite stiff, with the consequence that both FW800 or FW400 camera ports can be damaged by the leverage these type cords place on them over time.

 

-Marc

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Jack Flesher]

No issues with FW800 tether cords "popping out"... in fact I've never had one pop out. The best solution for safety sake and to relieve stress on the camera's port is to simply use a L shaped connector ... which Leaf had the good sense to supply with their Aptus backs.

 

Some cords like those from Paramount are really Heavy Duty and quite stiff, with the consequence that both FW800 or FW400 camera ports can be damaged by the leverage these type cords place on them over time.

 

-Marc

 

Since it's your birthday and all, I won't argue

 

Happy Birthday Marc!