M8 vs M9 lens 'investment'

[robert-gregory]

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I'm at the point of getting my first digital Leica M (have RD-1 and film M-series), but I'll ask a question here about comparing lens 'investment' between the M8.2 and M9.

 

On my film cameras I use a 35mm as my primary lens, both Summilux and Summicron (for size).

 

I have also have a 24mm Elmarit, great lens when I need to go wider. With an M9 it would probably see the same occasional use as on my film cameras (but I have been having fun with the 24mm frame on my D-LUX 4 more than I could have thought). On the M8 I imagine a 24mm would be there most of the time. f2.8 is just OK, as my main lens I would prefer the Summilux/Summicron.

 

Would it be worthwhile to upgrade to a 24 Summilux and get an M8, or keep the 24 Elmarit and get an M9? There isn't that much difference in cost between the 2 systems - M8.2/24 Summilux vs M9/24 Elmarit - once/if I sell the Elmarit. And of course I could just save some money and get by with the M8 and Elmarit and see how it goes, try things out before jumping in all the way.

 

And if I did go M8/24Summilux... at some time in the future I do see myself getting an FF M9 - sooner than later? - now what happens to that 24 Summilux 'investment'? f1.4 is very nice, but the other 'cost' is size and as a non-primary use lens size could be the difference between having it with me or not.

 

Anyone with an M8 and got a 24 Summilux? Got an M9 and 'changed' feeling for the 24 Summilux?

 

Thanks for any thoughts

[nryn]

I had an M8 and a 24 Elmarit. I haven't yet used it on the M9--not because I don't like the lens (although it was my least used lens on the M8) but because I'm falling back in love with a full-frame 35 and 50.

 

I wouldn't upgrade to the summilux until you knew whether that focal length suits you on the M9. It's not just about the focal length, it's also about the framing mechanics (there are no framelines for 24 on the M9 like there were on the M8). I love the look of the Summilux and I'd sure kill to have a 21 Summilux, but I haven't yet explored the 24 Elmarit enough on the M9.

[novice9]

if what you are worried about is investment, no question the m8/lux system will hold its value far better since the lux will hold its value and either of the cameras will depreciate to below 1,000 over the next say 5 years (perhaps 7 or 8 for the m9). if picture quality is the criterion and you don't absolutely need the speed, the m9 elmarit combo will give you better pictures. but then none of this takes into account the crop factor, which is a significant matter in itself. i have the 24 lux and it is stellar (use it on an m9).

[robert-gregory]

A fast 24 Summilux on the M9 (or film M) could definitely open up some possibilities over a 2 stop slower f2.8 Elmarit. Throw in the 1 stop gain in the M9's ISO vs M8 and its three stops, which makes it a very fast true wide on the M9. Still not sure about viewfinder blockage and the actual physical size in use. Handled one the other day here in Japan (new 'gray import from HK) for the equivalent of $5,500 , which seems like an OK price.

 

But then I have a nice 35mm Summilux already, and on the FF M9 I see this as my standard lens with a slower but still nice 24 Elmarit for wide.

 

But on an M8 the 24 Summilux is a more needed fast 'normal', and I'm still without a true wide.

[menos I M6]

Did you think about a 28 Summicron ?

This you can use without issues on both the M8 and M9, it gives you more speed than the Elmarit, is fairly affordable (used under 2000 EUR) and a very compact and lovely lens.

 

It would make your trial period with the M8 more affordable and could save you some cash, to safe up for a later M9.

[robert-gregory]

Just to make a bit more clear, I think of 'investment' for the most part as in 'use', although money for sure has 'value' and is part of the thought process when the difference between a (used/mint) M8.2 and M9 is so great. A lens should hold its value more if I did decide to sell at some time, unless something like the wide 24 Summilux with a [future] 'standard' FF M becomes a more of speciality lens with less need/demand for it on the used market.

 

Yes, the thought of the 28 Summicron did cross my mind. Not sure it fits in with a couple 35mm lenses and 24mm already. And it still doesn't do it 'wide' on an M8. maybe better would be thinking of a 18mm (but slow) or a 21mm Summilux, but both those lenses would be [again] more 'speciality' lenses on the FF M9 or film M.

 

This sure would have been easier if Leica hadn't come out with a FF digital. There is a big difference in price between a used mint M8.2 and an M9, twice the price for an M9, but then with an M8 its a re-work of the lenses in use, and in the long run (how many years down the line 1 year, 2-3 years?) I am fairly sure the M9 will be the more satisfying camera to have. with fewer compromises.

 

Try an M8 and just see how I like it, and be happy with what I got? Or just jump in for the M9 and think more long term (if that's possible with digital)?

[250swb]

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Tricky choice, but to my mind buying a 24mm Summilux and then not using it to its full potential on a cropped sensor M8 is like buying a 200mph Ferrari to carry sheep to market. It was an easy choice when we only had the M8, you couldn't do anything else if you wanted something like a 28mm view. But now its possible to make sense of all your lenses and use them to their true potential and what they were designed for.

 

So I'd say get the M9 and keep the 24mm Elmarit, its then a perfect jump to a 35mm as the next lens up. Or you may find the 24mm to wide for everyday use, in which case your 'investment' in a 24mm Summilux won't be wasted, but a 28mm Summicron would then be the perfect partner to a 50mm. But either way by going full frame you are not paying for an acre of glass that you never get the benefit from.

 

Steve

[luigi bertolotti]

I think your primary thinking ought to be about IF and WHEN, given your shooting style, you feel the need of a FF digital M (be it M9 or "the next"): do you often print above A4 ? Do you take lot of skill and tools to achieve top print quality ? Do you enjoy high ISO ? Those, imho, are the main drivers for a M9/FF: You could conclude that they are not at the top of your goals, whilst you could really enjoy the 2 stops more of Lux 24 onto a (rather) cheap M8/M8.2... 24 is great on cropped M8 frame : I have discovered this with my Elmarit, while is a focal I never considered on film Ms, where 21+28 was my favorite WA set.

[Logic108]

This is an interesting topic. My thoughts are that the M9 won't really be losing value in the next two years and neither will the 24 Summilux. I'm not convinced that the images from the 24 Elmarit on the M9 are that spectacular - mostly because I don't really enjoy this focal length on FF. The 24mm Elmarit does greta on the M8 and it's FOV is equivalent to 32mm which is very nice for me. If I had one lens for the M9 it would be either 35mm Summilux or 28mm Summicron. If I could choose 2 lenses and only had the M9 then it would be 28 Summicron and 50mm 'lux. On the M8 If I had the Money I would go for the 21mm 'lux and the 50mm 'lux (now I own the 24mm Elmarit and 50mm 'lux). This combination would also be perfect if I owned both the M8 and M9. If I had to get just one lens for the M8 then it would be either the 28 Summicron (if money was tight) or the 24mm lux. But who can buy just one Leica lens?

So there are lots of choices and combinations here. Do you plan on having a two lens set-up? If so your lens choices will be different. Do you plan on having a two camera set-up in the future? And so on. Just one lens? Then the 28mm Summicron on either the M8 or M9 would be the way to go.

[noah_addis]

Depends on what you mean by investment...

 

Photographically, it seems you have two options. First, buy a new cropped camera that requires UVIR filters, and then buy a $6500 lens to make the crop factor work for you.

 

Second, buy a $7000 camera that will let you use your existing lenses in the same way you use them now with film.

 

When I was shooting with the M8 I bought a 24 'Lux. It was a wonderful lens since it gave me something very close to a 35/1.4 equivalent.

 

Now I have two M9s, and I sold the 24/1.4. It's too big and expensive for a lens that only gets occasional use. I also have both current 35s and they are both amazing on the M9. I also have the 28/2 but I use it less often. It is fairly close to the 35

 

My advice as a photographer would be to just buy the M9 and use it with the lenses you have. You can stick to your favorite 35s for most work and use the 24 elmarit when you need something wider. The image quality of the M9 with a 35 is better than the M8 with a 24, it's probably a cheaper combo (since you already have the 35s) and you'll have a smaller, lighter kit. Even on the wide end, the 24/2.8 will seem like it's a stop faster on the M9 vs the M8 since the high-iso performance is at least a stop better.

 

And if you're used to shooting low/medium ISO film, you'll be pleasantly surprised by the M9 at higher iso.

 

If you're talking about an investment in a purely financial sense, buying cameras is a bad idea. One scratch or a bit of brassing and there goes your value.

 

One more thing--I sold my 24 Elmarit to buy my 24 Summilux, and I've regretted it. don't think I'd ever get another 24 'lux. It's just to big and heavy for what is, for me, a secondary lens. But the 24 Elmarit has a special look. I may get another one.

[Leicaiste]

Would it be worthwhile to upgrade to a 24 Summilux and get an M8, or keep the 24 Elmarit and get an M9?

 

From my experience, the M9 + 35mm are a better combination than the M8 + 24mm.

 

The 35mm frames are much better (cleaner) on the M9 than the 24mm's on the M8, where they are paired with 35mm frames, and to close from the edge of the finder.

 

And later, when you will buy inevitably an M9 (or M10), will you like to switch back and forth between the camera and 24mm finders ?

 

@ f1,4 ?

 

On the M8 I was using only the 28 and 50mm frames.

 

On the M9, I am using the 28, 35, 50, 75 and 90, like I did before with the M6 and MP.

 

Lucien

[flipper231]

Hi, I know nothing and am in the same position as you but own no glass no nothing. If 35mm is your thing go straight to the M9. The M8 will force you to buy smaller lenses which are always more expensive. Using a 50 instead of a 35 saves you 1000$ (CDN), same difference between 35 and 28. This can help you absorb the price difference to the M8 or get better or faster glass (cron vs elmarit for instance) or pay yourself a little goodie like a summilux for better low-light (the noctilux beingg out of reach for most of us).

Have fun

[innerimager]

My 2 cents and somewhat related experience- I have a 24 elmarit which was a favorite on the M8. With the M9 it's used much less, but when I do use it I've used the entire M9 viewfinder as a pretty good estimate of the frame. A 24 lux would block too much of the finder for this technique I think. On the other hand, I just got the 21 summilux for the M9 and absolutely love it, using a Zeiss 21mm finder. For me, this is the wide "lux" I want on an M9, it has enough of a different character from it's FL and 1.4 aperture that it really sets itself apart from other options. In particular, I have a 28 cron which I think is similar enough wide open to the 24/1.4 that with it's much smaller size and framelines, I prefer it. Another suggestion is simply that if you have a lens you really like (the 24 elmarit) it makes sense to keep it and add around it rather than replace it I think. best....Peter

[robert-gregory]

Thank you all for your thoughts here and on other threads which have just helped me 'think' about what I am doing.

 

Photographically, it seems I have two options. First, buy a new (used) cropped camera that requires IR filters (which need to be taken off when I change to my film cameras), and then buy a $5500 lens to make the crop factor work, and still be out true wide unless another lens is added. Compound that with re-thinking how I use every 'film' lens I have and it gets to be a work-a-round, or just a mess depending on how you feel about it. Add in the other factors...

 

Or the other option... An M9 without the limitations, dial in coding, stop improvement in noise, easier to focus, and keep using my lenses as I have, and a couple other useful features (which may or may not come in an M8 firmware update).

 

An M8/M8.2 would be great and I know a lot of folks are happy with theirs, but in the end (or beginning) the goal would always be the FF M9 - which just seems to have all the things the M8 doesn't have to make me a happy camper.

 

Got a phone call this morning from a camera shop in Osaka which I visited a few days ago, placing my request for an M9. They just got a black one in for me (had originally said 4 weeks). Unless something changes in the next couple days I'll be picking up Thursday or Friday. So looks like I'll be jumping in all the way. No plans now to change or buy new lenses, I'll see how what I have does and have fun with them. Looks like I'll be keeping the 24 Elmarit which I do like, not fast, but with the noise improvement of the M9 almost makes it a f2 ;-) right... and wouldn't cost me anything more.

 

So again THANKS, and I'll be posting sooner than later on how it turns out. Right now very very excited. I have a feeling this is going to be a big change how I feel and work.

[lightpainter]

I have worked with the M8 successfully and happily for three years. I was aware of the loss coming when I paid 4.000 EUR way back, but anyone who buys an M9 has to be aware he will be facing a 3.000 EUR loss within the same period because there will definitely be a M9.xor M10 until then. From the point of view of picture-quality: it's ridiculous to compare 250KB pictures here. I think you will only see the difference if you really blow up the pics and print them. There might be a point for the M9 then. Leica is offering a one year guarantee for the M8 now. I would get an M8 that has that guarantee, work with it for half a year, and if you still think you need an M9 you won't lose a lot of money when you sell it again to get a (then cheaper) M9. One thing I dislike about Leica politics is that they promised the M8 would be a kind of organic camera, growing with the development in digital photography. I fear that more man-power will go into the development of new models than in the (promised) development of the M8 or M9. BTW: the Elmarit 24asph is one of the best and most useful lenses on the M8. Finally: I rarely use UV/IR filters these days, and I would not like the idea of a standard filter on the M9 for daylight and outdoors.

[Leicaiste]

Leica is offering a one year guarantee for the M8 now. I would get an M8 that has that guarantee, work with it for half a year, and if you still think you need an M9 you won't lose a lot of money when you sell it again to get a (then cheaper) M9.

 

A cheaper M9 in half a year ? I don't think so.

 

And if so the resale value of the M8 will be even lower.

 

Lucien

[lightpainter]

A cheaper M9 in half a year ? I don't think so.

 

I bet yes.

[menos I M6]

A cheaper M9 in half a year ? I don't think so.

 

And if so the resale value of the M8 will be even lower.

 

Lucien

 

The quoted retail price of the M9 has been melted down by 1.000,- EUR already over the last 8 weeks in Asia!

 

I bet, it will continue, albeit with a lower pace, as we are now already UNDER the manufacturer quoted price!

 

(availability of course is another topic, which varies wildly with reports from people, who wait for months already, while others walked into a store and picked one immediately)

[Leicaiste]

The quoted retail price of the M9 has been melted down by 1.000,- EUR already over the last 8 weeks in Asia!

 

Then what is the quoted price in EUR in Asia now ?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[menos I M6]

Then what is the quoted price in EUR in Asia now ?

 

5.200,- EUR @ Shashinki | Malaysia

5.250,- EUR @ Tin Cheung | Hong Kong

 

The last time, I asked in Shanghai | China Mainland, I was quoted between 6.000 − 6.500 ,- EUR (!!!)

 

I guess, the price in Europe is slightly going down too ?

It is very likely, that the price settles another 100 − 200 EUR down, when the first run is slowing down, as preorders get delivered.

 

It is nice, to have some possible advantage in currency exchange rates between the EUR and diverse Asian countries too, when the timing fits.

 

The EUR is going straight down at the moment towards the Chinese RMB and HKD.