M2-R and KS15-4 Collectable value difference?

[carbon_dragon]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I have a KS15-4 and have no interest in selling it. But I bought it as a normal M2 lever rewind self timer years ago and see M2-Rs all the time but never see a KS for sale. Are the KS's just worth approximately what the M2's are, or are they worth approximately what the M2Rs are? I'm just curious. Thanks.

[luigi bertolotti]

Can you post some more info (s/n) and/or a photo of your M2, possibly detailing the film loading system ? For what I know, no M2s were engraved KS15-4 (the code of the military contract which originated this variant of M2) : they ought to be marked "M2" (usually referred to as "M2S") or "M2 - R" for the late items: anyway, I think that it ought to be valued rather into the M2 - R range.

Edited January 28, 2010 by luigi bertolotti

[carbon_dragon]

Ok, here are a few shots of the camera. Hope I post these right.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[andybarton]

So, the only difference between the normal M2 (like mine, with a s/n 1012xxx) and this one is the rapid loading spool?

[carbon_dragon]

Ok, the pictures seemed to go in ok. I bought it from KEH and it was on their site as a M2 lever rewind self timer. It wasn't labelled a KS. But when I got it, I thought someone had added the M4 loading kit. With a little research though, I realized it was actually a KS15-4 from the loading system, the graphic on the bottom, and the felt dust seals behind the rear door. I always though it was interesting but I'm adding it to my insurance riders so I'd like to know whether to insure it for more than the worth of a regular BGN condition M2. Thanks.

[carbon_dragon]

So, the only difference between the normal M2 (like mine, with a s/n 1012xxx) and this one is the rapid loading spool?

 

Yes, and the graphic describing the load system and the black felt strip (dust seal) visible in the second picture. I'm not an expert, that's just what I read. I'm told it's identical to the M2-R except for the engraving.

[luigi bertolotti]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

The look, the above details, and the s/n all bring to the description made by Lager : "... M2S was supplied to the US Government... film loading system as fitted to the Leica M4... camera kit designated KS15-4. Examples inspected by the author occur in the 1163000 - 1164000 s/n range". He displays a pic of such item, and it looks identical to yours : I think it is undoubtly an item of the KS15-4 series, and has to be treated with a certain attention : haven't idea of its possible value, but do not see reason for it hasn't to be higher than a standard M2, even if the differences are minimal... btw, I don't think that the M4 film loading system was offered by Leitz as a std. "upgrade" for M2, though it was (is) surely possible to be made by some lab: the needed parts aren't "critical" to find.

[carbon_dragon]

Ok, but do I just look up M2's and insure it for that, or do I insure it for more? There are no KS's for sale by that name to compare to. M2-R's go for a lot more. Naturally I'm keeping both my M2's not selling them even though I'm doing most of my shooting with an M8 these days, but I still want to have an idea of what it's worth.

[BenMacPhoto]

There is one on ebay for about $3500 usd. But that also comes with a KS15-4 army case.

I know DAG can do this modification and you can get those film logo plates on ebay as well. I'm not saying yours isn't a genuine one, just to insure it for that money I would image it would have to be authenticated? since there are no markings for a KS15-4.

[jc_braconi]

The Leica M2 supplied with rapid load system of the M4 : US government designation is KS15-4, were made in 2 batches :

1 163 150 - 1 163 770 and 1 164 046 - 1 164 300

It became later the civilian M2R.

This one is a genuine one of 874 units and for a collector have more value than a classic M2.

Congratulations.

Edited January 31, 2010 by jc_braconi

[Samascha]

I would like to ask you guys whether this m2 is an authentic ks15-4, based on the picture. Thanks

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[wizard]

vor 49 Minuten schrieb Samascha:

I would like to ask you guys whether this m2 is an authentic ks15-4, based on the picture. Thanks

Well, looks like it is an authentic ks15-4, but your last photo does not show the interesting part of the bottom graphic (where the difference to a regular M2 may be seen). Anyway, the serial number is within the first of the two batches quoted above by jc_braconi.

[willeica]

5 hours ago, wizard said:

Well, looks like it is an authentic ks15-4, but your last photo does not show the interesting part of the bottom graphic (where the difference to a regular M2 may be seen). Anyway, the serial number is within the first of the two batches quoted above by jc_braconi.

We need to see whether it has the M4 type fixed spool. 

Meanwhile, you may find this item, which is coming up for auction tomorrow, interesting.

https://tamarkin-rare-camera-auctions.liveauctioneers.com/item/113840601_leica-ks-15-set

William 

[pippy]

3 hours ago, willeica said:

We need to see whether it has the M4 type fixed spool...

I, too, thought it slightly strange that the poster omitted this obviously useful detail as well as cropping-off the equally useful part of the loading diagram.

On the other hand the baseplate clearly has the neccessary 'bit' in place to support the fixed rapid-load take-up spool system / method and unless I am mistaken the 'missing' part of the loading diagram will show the rapid-load film path instead of the 'cut-film leader' graphic which is sported by a 'normal' M2 such as my own.

I think the most helpful thing supporting its authenticity is that, as has already been mentioned, the serial # falls into the correct grouping.

Philip.

[Samascha]

1 minute ago, pippy said:

I, too, thought it slightly strange that the poster omitted this obviously useful detail as well as cropping-off the equally useful part of the loading diagram.

On the other hand the baseplate clearly has the neccessary 'bit' in place to support the fixed rapid-load take-up spool system / method and unless I am mistaken the 'missing' part of the loading diagram will show the rapid-load film path instead of the 'cut-film leader' graphic which is sported by a 'normal' M2 such as my own.

I think the most helpful thing supporting its authenticity is that, as has already been mentioned, the serial # falls into the correct grouping.

Philip.

This is the omitted part of the camera.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[pippy]

Yup. That's correct for the rapid-load. Compare with post #3 above.

This, by contrast, is what the diagram on a standard M2 looks like;

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Nice camera! Enjoy using it.

Philip.

Edited November 12, 2021 by pippy

[RayD28]

From Tamarkin's Auction catalogue.  The auction was today.  

https://tamarkin-rare-camera-auctions.liveauctioneers.com/item/113840601_leica-ks-15-set

[alan mcfall]

Here is my KS-15-4 with DR 50 and 35 summicrons, and a contract number shutter release. Acquired as a set.  Other than possible factory records, there seems to be no way to verify if the lenses were the original shipped to the army.  The serials are all about the same date though. Camera is 1163445, and has the rapid load and felt dust seals. I would need an  army outfit case for a complete set.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[adan]

Here are a couple of questions. My local shop just took in an M2 S/N 105xxxx (1962?)

It has the full-boat M4-type rapid-load system installed - right down to the instruction drawing.

1) Did Leitz/Leica ever retrofit plain M2s with the M4 system? Or is this probably a 3rd-party upgrade?

2) Just for future reference, does the upgrade (without true M2-R/S/KS provenance - S/N) add anything to the value? (It does for me - but I'm not the whole market. )

The selling price now is pretty much in line with plain-vanilla M2s in good-user condition on da Bay (brassed scuff mark on the top, everything functioning well, clean RF/VF).

Which is to say: cheap compared to most used 20th-C. bodies these days. (!!)

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[GRBrown]

2 hours ago, adan said:

1) Did Leitz/Leica ever retrofit plain M2s with the M4 system? Or is this probably a 3rd-party upgrade?

According to the Leica FAQ at nemeng.com, Leica issued a user-installed M2 quick load kit (14260). http://www.nemeng.com/leica/005b.shtml A user quoted on the page reported using the kit with two M3s.

I have one that I never installed. It includes a replacement take-up spool, a film guide that attaches to the base plate, and a loading diagram label. No installation instructions.