cost?

[brunop]

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i am a complete amateur so excuse this question, please. but why does this camera cost over 20,000 dollars? with all due respect.

 

i own a d-lux 4 which i love like a son. and the m-series are all under 10,000 more or less.

 

please enlighten me as to why the "s" is so dear.

[adan]

Because Leica thinks that's what it worth?

 

Rhetorical question, since I don't expect anyone to reveal personal finances on the web - but what do you charge people for your services/products/talent, and why do you charge that much?

 

Why does George Tice get $40,000 for a 28"x36" platinum/palladium print of "Petit's Mobil Station"?

 

George Tice, Petit's Mobil Station

[brunop]

i have no idea. a nice shot, no doubt. but $40,000? you're kidding me. i just don't see it.

 

anyway, it's the indian, not the arrow. as we say here in the states.

 

that said, if someone were to gift me an s1? i'd take it.

[adan]

OK, rhetorical questions and the intangibles of art aside.....

 

1. Leica sees the S2 as competing in the medium-format arena, where cameras with similar specs (37.5 megapixels, sensor substantially larger than 35mm film - 30 x 45mm) routinely cost that much, or more (or less, too.)

 

For example:

Hasselblad | H3DII-39 SLR Digital Camera Kit with | 70380530

 

Mamiya | DM33 Digital Camera System | 322133 | B&H Photo Video

 

Mamiya | DM56 Digital Camera System | 322156 | B&H Photo Video

 

Mamiya doesn't exactly match the S2 - you either pay more for more megapixels or less for less megapixels - but if they made an in-between, it would probably cost "in between" as well, or about $25,000.

 

Also the Hassy and Mamiya include normal lenses, which retail on their own for $2,000 or $1,300. Figure a "kit lens" discount and they probably account for $1,500-1,000 of the Hassy/Mamiya kit prices.

 

2. In that arena, the S2 is substantially smaller and more ergonomic than most of the competitors which take boxy digital backs, and, as with the M cameras, Leica figures that smaller size (relative to image quality) in and of itself is a feature for which some photographers will pay extra.

 

Not everyone cares about small size - but Leica doesn't need to sell to "everyone", just "enough" people. The market judgement is still out on whether they calculated correctly.

 

3. Leica is in the business of hand-building a small volume of cameras. Which is an expensive way to do it. Whether it actually confers any benefit is debatable - but that's how they do it, and that sets their cost structure. Which sets the price they have to charge to make a profit (one hopes, eventually).

 

______________

 

BTW, the current camera is the S2 - the S1 was a brief limited-run scanning-back digital camera from the mid 1990's.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Directly from a dealer on the P65+ and P40+

 

Normal MSRP on P65+ and P40+ with DF, 80mm LS:

 

P65+ $43,990

P40+ $23,990

 

That's the new DF body and the LS lens is a leaf shutter. This is also MSRP which is basically list price. Have you ever paid list price on a car.

[adan]

Guy, OK, so a $2,400 lens in that case. What would PhaseOne actually knock off the kit price if you don't want/already had the lens?

 

Regardless, I suspect the OP would be equally - astounded - by a $21,000 camera as by a $24,000 camera. In the stratosphere, one dies of oxygen starvation just as fast at 21,000 meters as at 24,000 meters.

[jaapv]

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Professional tools - you can get a decent kitchen knofe for 6.95 at any superstore - It will even slice your chicken. But I paid 695 Euro for a set of Swissler chef's knives - perfectly balanced, keep their edge, a joy to use.

[stunsworth]

I paid 695 Euro for a set of Swissler chef's knives - perfectly balanced, keep their edge, a joy to use.

 

But did they make you a better cook <grin>?

[jpattison]

They should have inspired him to be a better cook, as a Leica inspires one to take a better photograph !

 

John

[stunsworth]

They should have inspired him to be a better cook, as a Leica inspires one to take a better photograph !

 

Does it? I can't say I feel that using a Leica makes me feel more inspired than when I used a different camera. I prefer the rangefinder 'experience' which is the principle reason I use Leicas.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Guy, OK, so a $2,400 lens in that case. What would PhaseOne actually knock off the kit price if you don't want/already had the lens?

 

Regardless, I suspect the OP would be equally - astounded - by a $21,000 camera as by a $24,000 camera. In the stratosphere, one dies of oxygen starvation just as fast at 21,000 meters as at 24,000 meters.

 

Not sure without the lens since they do package these up pretty much. Myself I just bought the back only since i already have the rest of the parts lenses and bodies. Regardless which system we are still in another price category. Basically your paying for a big sensor and with that comes limited yields and smaller production runs of course. Leica's lenses for the S2 are maybe more the show stopper. What one really needs to do here is figure it out on a system level as far as purchase. Body and maybe 3 lens type scenario. Also many deals going on as well at different times or when new product comes out they heavily discount. Hassy is well known for this. In the case of leica there is no discounting from the dealers and if there is one it is very small from what I have been told MSRP is the price.

 

Also many will buy used and than upgrade to the next level and in this case sometimes overall get a much better pricing structure , than the warranties and such. In any case going into MF with any system you just really have to pay attention to what is going on at the time. Phase just did a upgrade path to the P65+ and got slammed with orders at the end of 2009. Also the same with the P40+there was a upgrade from some much older backs to move up. End of the day move product for year end revenue and get old products off the street.

 

As you see here there are many ways to get in on upgrades and trade ins. Leica has no such program like this so it's all cash to get in which makes it harder obviously. leica AG company based financing or leasing I would think would be helpful to them. I brought that idea up to them which I think maybe a easier way for people to buy in. Will see

[dfarkas]

To address the original poster's question, the S2's price is in the ballpark of other medium format systems, while offering a brand new body design and some of the best lenses Leica has ever produced. While the other MF systems in the marketplace offer great quality, Leica is bringing a few new things to the table with faster optics, weather sealing, speed, ease of operation, large LCD, compact SLR-feeling body, great viewfinder, dual card writing, and long battery life, to name a few. The S2 is not for everyone, but there are a lot of photographers that have waited a long time for a camera like the S2.

 

To address other comments and questions from this thread:

 

Leasing

 

We (as well as other Leica professional dealers) work with different leasing companies who can structure a lease in a variety of ways/time-frames depending on needs (12, 24, 30, 36 or 48 months, $1 buyout or FMV, no payments first 6 months, etc.)

 

Trade-ins

 

While Leica doesn't offer company-sponsored trade-ins, dealers can offer trade-ins at their own discretion. We offer trade-ins and give 80% of actual market value towards purchase. This is a higher percentage than most, as we offer trade-ins as a service, not as a profit center. We are completely transparent about this policy.

 

We have already taken in a good deal of equipment in trade towards S2s (Hasselblad, Phase, Nikon, Canon, Leica, Mamiya) I even have one customer who is getting an S2 with three lenses entirely on trade, no cash.

MSRP vs. MSP

 

Just to clarify, MSRP on the S2 is actually $25,300. MSP is $22,995. I don't know of any Leica dealers that charge MSRP. Leica's MSP policy is in place for a few reasons.

 

1) Because all dealers charge the same price, competition is based on product expertise and level of service. This prevents commodiization and upholds value for the brand.

 

2) There is no vague pricing. There is a clearly published price, not a "call for price" or "email for quote" where the price should be. This makes finding pricing easier and not a hunt for real information. Long before I ever sold camera gear in my own store, I was a buyer myself. I'd look through the back of photo magazines and whenever I'd see a "call for price", I'd automatically look for another store to do business with.

 

3) Nobody feels they got a bad deal. By definition, if one person gets a great deal by negotiating, somebody else didn't. This can create a negative buying experience. I've heard from several of my customers who have purchased digital MF gear in the past who felt like they were buying a used car - haggling, the sales rep "checking with their manager", throwing in "floormats", etc. With Leica, everyone gets treated equally and fairly.

 

Manufacturer Deals

 

While other manufacturers are heavily discounting old product and trying to clear the shelves before the end of their fiscal year, this can negatively effect previous purchasers. I know many that watched their 6 or 12 month-old MF camera drop 60% in value due to manufacturer price drops and special deals. This essentially locked many in to use the manufacturers' upgrade paths and made switching to a different brand (even if the user wanted to) a very painful proposition. Leica does a great job of protecting its used market and its existing owners (admittedly not in all cases, but in most).

 

David

[jaapv]

But did they make you a better cook <grin>?

I get no complaints

[rwfreund]

I wonder if MSP fits under the narrow definition of those restrictions that were allowed under the 2007 Supreme Court decision on the subject?

We usually consider those sort of things as anti-competitive.

 

...unless price is not part of competition in this case. I suppose that in a Hermes market, price has little bearing, so if it seems high, or if you need to ask as they say, then you can't afford it.

-bob

[earleygallery]

But did they make you a better cook <grin>?

 

Yes decent knives are worth it, some of those ready meal packets are a bugger to open!

[Bo_Lorentzen]

>>We have already taken in a good deal of equipment in trade towards S2s (Hasselblad, Phase, Nikon, Canon, Leica, Mamiya) I even have one customer who is getting an S2 with three lenses entirely on trade, no cash.

 

I would not say that too loud, a lot of us have storage spaces full of old cameras....

 

.

[mwilliamsphotography]

Excluding the ubiquitous P&S category, Leica has tended to offer unique products. In most product categories "unique" usually costs more.

 

-Marc

[GMB]

OK, rhetorical questions and the intangibles of art aside.....

 

.

 

Just do develop a bit further on the 3 points Andy made and which are all valid:

 

1) First factor in setting the price is costs, as it is not a (long term) viable option to sell below costs. Simply said, costs determine the minimum price that you must achieve.

 

While variable costs are easy to determine and allocate, fixed costs are difficult to allocate as their allocation depends on the amount of units you think you can sell over a given time.

 

Variable costs, in particular part costs, are certainly more higher for the S2 than for a Digilux and high end SLRs. In particular, large sensors are difficult and more costly to build. Most likely, the variable costs are already several thousands Euros.

 

As regards fixed costs, Leica built the S2 from scratch and therefore incurred significant R&D costs. Also, given the high variable costs, Leica knows that even if it tries to price the camera as low as possible, the price will be so high that only a small group of customers can afford. Hence, the high R&D costs are spread over a small number of units resulting in high costs per unit.

 

2) Second factor in price is profit. Any rational seller tries to price its products at the level where he maximizes profit. And here we come back to Adam Smith – supply and demand curve (lower price: higher demand, more sales—higher price: lower demand, less sales). Leica apparently thinks that the price it set is the optimum price, taking into account amongst others the competition etc. Whether that’s correct or not waits to be seen and also depends on what its competitors do. Remember, when Leica announced the S2, Hassy dropped its prices. That’s called competitive market forces.

 

Personally, I think that the decision whether to buy into a system like the S2 does not depend on whether it costs $40,000 or $45,000. In other words, these expensive cameras are not very price sensitive, as someone who is willing to pay $40,000 is likely to be willing to $45,000 as well.

 

3) Finally, don’t forget that these are retailer prices. I don’t know that retailers realize a nice margin on these cameras (I assume I will be corrected shortly of that’s wrong). I therefore think that Leica’s recommended retail prices are not cast in stone and that there is some room for negotiation.

 

+++++

 

I am not going to elaborate on the art market as prices there are totally irrational. Imagine I would take exactly the same shot that George Tice took, it would be worth a few bucks, even if it looked better than the original because no one knows me and cares about my photos. If Obama took the shot, totally different ballgame…

 

Georg

[wildlightphoto]

... I even have one customer who is getting an S2 with three lenses...

 

THREE lenses? 70mm, 180mm, and ..... ????

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[dfarkas]

THREE lenses? 70mm, 180mm, and ..... ????

 

....35mm