Is this the dreaded Line?

[Mauribix]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I did not see a smiley icon there so I take it that you are serious about this statement. What documentations and scientific fact do you have to postulate this?

Or, was this some whims to entertain us?

 

Had that issue twice with my M8... after each flight.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jaapv]

Geez man...let's have a look before we speak on the 'net, shall we?

 

Let me google that for you

 

I'm sure you could make many other searches that would also return similar results.

 

FWIW Every single one of my CMOS-based Canon "pro" (1d2, 5d, 1ds2) cameras needed to be returned to CPS for remapping at one point or another; the 1ds2 needed to go twice.

 

My D3 doesn't exhibit this behaviour... yet. But it will given enough time. The difference between Canon and Leica is that Canon could do this in firmware and would not replace the sensor; that meant a one week turnaround.

 

From Leica, I got a sensor replacement with the M8. That's great (and probably overkill), but it took months.

 

Oh, and people with point and shoots? I don't know, maybe they generally don't care as much about a stuck pixel or high ISO sensor defect. Or maybe the sensor amplification you see in most high-end cameras (in other words, high ISO levels) simply isn't available to them.

From the remark of the Leica rep one could infer Leica is working on a firmware solution.

[noah_addis]

I emailed cusomer service and am waiting for a response. If this is going to happen every time I take a flight, it will be a real problem since I travel quite a bit.

 

I traveled with nikons and canons for years with no problems. I know these things do happen, but it's quite troubling on a new camera.

[adan]

If the airport X-rays don't get your film, the cosmic rays will get your sensor.....

 

Before getting too excited about mapping out such lines, folks might want to look at theses posts:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-s2-forum/112897-s2-vacation-pointnshoot-gallery.html

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/112921-bad-sensor-bug-pixel-mapping.html

 

It's possible that a sensor without an AA filter doesn't respond as cleanly to interpolating across a mapped-out pixel or line of pixels as does one WITH such a filter. Although that is still somewhat speculation so far....and one can debate which artifact is more preferable.

[jaapv]

I emailed cusomer service and am waiting for a response. If this is going to happen every time I take a flight, it will be a real problem since I travel quite a bit.

I can assure you it won't. Otherwise airline pilots would glow in the dark. It is rather rare, really. I haven't had it on either my M8s or my M9 for nearly 120.000 km intercontinental flights. The worst offenders seem to be transpolar flights btw. Tin foil hats anybody?

[jonoslack]

From Leica, I got a sensor replacement with the M8. That's great (and probably overkill), but it took months.

 

 

HI Jamie

Just a point that does I think need clarifying here (several others have talked about replacing sensors) - As I understand it Leica used to replace the sensor because they didn't have scope for pixel mapping and sending the sensor back to Jenoptic to do it took too long.

Nowadays they do have the facility to remap the sensor, which is what they are doing (rather than replacing it), so things are much quicker (typically a few days).

[jaapv]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Some may have missed Tim Ashley's post on the S2 forum:

 

 

 

 

 

Steve, my problem is, I think, a column defect which I guess is due to a hot pixel that isn't being mapped in the internal processing engine. It is effectively present, in the same column, in all files but is very rarely visible even at 100% on screen. Circumstances liable to provoke it are use of ISO 1250 or 640, tungsten light, underexposure and so on. In extreme circumstances it can be provoked in even an 160 ISO file but only when heavily underexposed under tungsten light. In practice the only shots I can't currently reliably do are long exposure night shots of the cityscape variety. Actually I do sometimes need to do that sort of thing but it's a rarity so over Christmas and New Year I have lived with it.

 

Now I have to decide whether to ask for it to be fixed, replaced or refunded as I might choose. This sort of thing does go out the door with most manufacturers from time to time but in this price range, as you say, it is a 'problem' and seems to betoken some QC issues which we would all rather not be seeing with a new product of this profile. In any event the unit I took delivery of is not really fit for purpose on this one count alone, I think most people would agree.

 

Below are a couple of examples. Any opinions that people might have as to the likely cause of this would be welcome. My guess as to the cause might be incorrect. It does show up in whatever RAW program I use though I have not tried shooting JPEG at all.

 

 

 

Best

 

Tim

 

 

 

Followed by:

 

 

 

 

A little update...

 

I gave Leica a copy, yesterday afternoon, of a DNG file taken at ISO1250 showing a column defect from a bad pixel that wasn't mapped properly (see higher up this thread) and this morning I received by email a small (600kb) FW update which, when installed, fixed the problem completely.

 

Tim

 

 

 

 

Which means there is some really sophisticated pixel mapping going on in Solms nowadays I think.

[adan]

Hi, Jaap - you might want to check out the follow-up in his "S2 vacation camera" thread - which I linked to above. A new artifact - which may or may not be linked to the "correction" FW update he received from Leica....

[jaapv]

Interesting, Andy, I got bored with nthe thread before that cropped up. - It does indeed look like some kind of aliasing - I'm sure somebody in Solms or at Jenoptik is taking a hard look at that mapping software now..

[wlaidlaw]

I can assure you it won't. Otherwise airline pilots would glow in the dark. It is rather rare, really. I haven't had it on either my M8s or my M9 for nearly 120.000 km intercontinental flights. The worst offenders seem to be transpolar flights btw. Tin foil hats anybody?

 

When I went to Japan last year on a trans-polar flight, I solemnly wrapped up my M8 in a lead lined film safe bag, only to be informed by someone on the forum that I would have needed 10 meters of lead or 50 meters of concrete to keep out high energy cosmic ray particles. It still survived.

 

Sadly the joke about pilots needing tin foil hats is not one. A worryingly high proportion of long haul pilots are now developing brain tumours in their 60's and 70's - my daughter's partner's father amongst them.

 

Wilson

[jaapv]

Sorry to hear that, Wilson. I was not aware of this - joke in bad taste in that case

[Googaliser]

What is it you are scared of? Life is comprised of scary situations, you just need to rationalise them and you may find you can get by. If a camera scares you it may be worth thinking about some help, but solace may be found in the knowledge that every anomaly has a cause, and often you will find it benign when worked out through therapy. I hope that helps.

 

Steve

 

250swb: I doubt this helped the person it was aimed at but it certainly made me laugh

[arthury]

Geez man...let's have a look before we speak on the 'net, shall we?

 

Let me google that for you

 

I'm sure you could make many other searches that would also return similar results.

 

FWIW Every single one of my CMOS-based Canon "pro" (1d2, 5d, 1ds2) cameras needed to be returned to CPS for remapping at one point or another; the 1ds2 needed to go twice.

 

My D3 doesn't exhibit this behaviour... yet. But it will given enough time. The difference between Canon and Leica is that Canon could do this in firmware and would not replace the sensor; that meant a one week turnaround.

 

From Leica, I got a sensor replacement with the M8. That's great (and probably overkill), but it took months.

 

Oh, and people with point and shoots? I don't know, maybe they generally don't care as much about a stuck pixel or high ISO sensor defect. Or maybe the sensor amplification you see in most high-end cameras (in other words, high ISO levels) simply isn't available to them.

 

 

You must be really unlucky Jamie. I have owned the Nikon D100, D2H, D2X, D3 and now the D3X and have never experienced this. These cameras were all shipped to me via air from the east coast US.

 

Are you saying that the Nikon's firmware automatically re-map stuck pixels with nearby pixels? If there's this feature, I have never seen it in any of their marketing materials.

[arthury]

So, now, we're saying that after waiting for months for an M9 and paying $7K, you can't even travel with it in the air.

 

Is this a reasonable restriction? What's next? You have to use the camera in a lead box?

[jonoslack]

Are you saying that the Nikon's firmware automatically re-map stuck pixels with nearby pixels? If there's this feature, I have never seen it in any of their marketing materials.

 

I'm not certain about Nikon - Olympus and some others certainly do this at regular intervals. Perhaps advertising it as a feature would be considered as not constructive (who wants to admit that they need it).

 

Still, if Leica can do it by you sending them a .dng, and them sending back a small firmware update, that sounds pretty good (even if, as seem's possible in Tim's case , they haven't got it quite right yet).

[jaapv]

So, now, we're saying that after waiting for months for an M9 and paying $7K, you can't even travel with it in the air.

 

Is this a reasonable restriction? What's next? You have to use the camera in a lead box?

I guess you will have to go back to using film if you don't like the natural phenomena that affact ALL sensors.... For cosmic radiaton you need a camera case made of concrete 20 meters thick. You might have to pay excess luggage.....

[adan]

Of course, practically every digital camera has the capability to hunt for bad pixels and correct for them. That is what the "dark noise" exposure after a long exposure does - read the sensor with the shutter closed to see if there are any spurious signals, and then delete them, on a picture-by-picture basis.

 

To borrow from the farmer in North by Northwest - "That's funny. That pixel's showing light where there ain't no light."

 

I'd think it is a relatively minor additional step to have the camera do a brief dark exposure by itself (no shutter opening needed, just read the sensor in the dark), say, at shutdown, and then permanently map any hot pixels found, to be deleted from ALL pictures thereafter.

 

Whether that is actually how Nikon or Canon do it is another matter....

__________________

 

BTW, Tim now says that Leica says that his new artifact is unrelated to the hot pixel mapping upgrade they gave him for his S2 - a different problem, for which the camera is going in for service.

[Jamie Roberts]

You must be really unlucky Jamie. I have owned the Nikon D100, D2H, D2X, D3 and now the D3X and have never experienced this. These cameras were all shipped to me via air from the east coast US.

 

Are you saying that the Nikon's firmware automatically re-map stuck pixels with nearby pixels? If there's this feature, I have never seen it in any of their marketing materials.

 

Well, maybe I am unlucky; maybe you're just lucky. I am *hard* on cameras--I shoot a lot with them, so maybe I push them harder than most. But then there's all those othe reports of stuck pixels, too...

 

And I've never co-related it with air travel though that certainly could be the case. My M8 starting acting up after a flight to Las Vegas from Toronto; but I don't remember the 1ds2 or other Canons travelling like that just before their stuck pixel problems. I also flew to China from Toronto non-stop twice last year and the M8 seems just fine.

 

It might also be true that since you've shot predominantly Nikon, I was perhaps shooting a lot higher ISO with the Canons than you were before the D3 and therefore saw the problem more often (this tends to show more with amplification).

 

And I'm not saying that NIkon (or Canon) cameras automatically re-map at all. My Canons had to go to CPS to be remapped; I'm assuming the D3 would need to go to NPS in the case of pixel problems. But I don't believe either Canon or Nikon would normally eplace the sensor for such an issue.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M