S2 as a vacation point'n'shoot (gallery)

[tashley]

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I just remembered that the S2 will have 1 stop faster flash sync with 4 leaf shutter lenses than 35mm DSLRs have. So that is another plus if you need it - I don't know if any leaf shutter S2 lenses are available yet. However, with the other lenses, sync will be a stop less than on 35mm cameras..

 

Hi Alan,

 

The LS lenses are due in Q1 and I'll be going for at least one of them.

 

Your points are well taken but I can tell you that at least two quite extremely well known pro-photo names, people who would never mix with mortals like us on forums, are taking the leap AFAIK though my guess is that they are such super-leaguers that the exact cost-benefit analyses are maybe less important to them than to the rest of us. From what I gather, they just like the simplicity and ease of use of the system and I must say that whilst I agree with most of what you've said, I'm with them on this: the S2 system doesn't 'get in the way' like other MF systems I've used or tried and yet you get all that extra resolution.

 

I agree on the Mammy 28D. It's stellar in the middle and I hear very good on the smaller sensored MF chips but on a P45+ and above, it has soggy edges.

 

Best

T

[AlanG]

Hi Alan,

 

The LS lenses are due in Q1 and I'll be going for at least one of them.

 

Your points are well taken but I can tell you that at least two quite extremely well known pro-photo names, people who would never mix with mortals like us on forums, are taking the leap AFAIK though my guess is that they are such super-leaguers that the exact cost-benefit analyses are maybe less important to them than to the rest of us. From what I gather, they just like the simplicity and ease of use of the system and I must say that whilst I agree with most of what you've said, I'm with them on this: the S2 system doesn't 'get in the way' like other MF systems I've used or tried and yet you get all that extra resolution.

 

I agree on the Mammy 28D. It's stellar in the middle and I hear very good on the smaller sensored MF chips but on a P45+ and above, it has soggy edges.

 

Best

T

 

Unfortunately, the main reason one buys a 28mm lens for MF is to use a larger sensor for as wide a view as possible.

 

I'm sure there will be top pros using it...that is not in doubt. There are aspects of photography where it could be the best choice for some shooters. Just as I once had 3 view cameras with about 16 lenses along with several other systems in order to have the best way to do each job. (When budgets were higher.) It's just that few can take that kind of plunge unless there is a more complete system available and the support that they need... even if money is not a factor. Being new and unproven will also be a big issue for prospective purchasers.

 

My main point is that the longer it takes Leica, the more likely that 35mm will improve or Hassy will come out with something new before the S2 has a chance to really prove itself to professionals as a viable option.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Tim you may have a bad copy as we discussed before . Jack seems very happy with his 28mm and his P65+. Granted F11 seems to be the case but that is very typical of extreme wide angles in MF . We have to remember that is like a 16mm in 35mm FF land and we all know about DOF which with his P65 maybe 3 stops less than 35mm.

 

Frankly mine is stellar on my P40+ of course I have a crop sensor as well. So is the S2 if you really think about it. The camera is obviously made for that size sensor whereas Hassy and Phase are not made for a certain size sensor but everything from full 645 size to smaller. That will have a affect on DOF as well.

 

Tim I have to disagree though on the simplicity issue . Anything in MF is just simple to operate to start with. None of these system have a ton of bells and whistles and most are single AF point or close to it and pretty much turn it on and go. Now from factor is different and like I said many times some folks like the conventional DSLR handling and I would credit that more than anything else. The S2 still has some menu finding stuff that is not convenient as well on a outside button like EV control and such.

 

Tim honestly I know you like your S2 as you should it is what is making you happy but have to say sounds like your defending it as well. Have to say one thing about gear never fall in love with it at least from my seat anything I smell that might be better I will jump on it, there really is NO devotion to anything on the gear front. Need to find what works for you and has the LEAST amount of compromises because every system out there is a compromise. I liked the S2 but I can think of another 100 reasons how to make it better just like i can with any Hassy , Phase , Nikon or Canon. To often I hear people discredit other systems to help justify what one owns. It honestly makes no sense but makes folks feel good. Now how many times have we all seen that one on our forum readings. Kind of scary if you think about it and as a owner of a forum I see it everyday.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Unfortunately, the main reason one buys a 28mm lens for MF is to use a larger sensor for as wide a view as possible.

 

I'm sure there will be top pros using it...that is not in doubt. There are aspects of photography where it could be the best choice for some shooters. Just as I once had 3 view cameras with about 16 lenses along with several other systems in order to have the best way to do each job. (When budgets were higher.) It's just that few can take that kind of plunge unless there is a more complete system available and the support that they need... even if money is not a factor. Being new and unproven will also be a big issue for prospective purchasers.

 

My main point is that the longer it takes Leica, the more likely that 35mm will improve or Hassy will come out with something new before the S2 has a chance to really prove itself to professionals as a viable option.

 

Case in point Hassy sounds like there dropping in a 40mpx back so now Leica has another 40 mpx 6 micron system to deal with. I agree with Alan and i said it many times we need to see those other lenses.

[tashley]

 

My main point is that the longer it takes Leica, the more likely that 35mm will improve or Hassy will come out with something new before the S2 has a chance to really prove itself to professionals as a viable option.

 

 

I agree 100% - it is vital that they get at least the 35 out the door very very soon, along with at least one of the leaf shutter longer lenses. And if there's no 24mm and no T/S within a reasonable period then not even a fan like me will feel able to stick with the system. I still have my Phase gear and though I agree to differ with others about the 28mm (I think I do have a good copy) I do have a Cambo wide with Schneider 35XL that hits the spot mostly, though it had more distortion than you generally hear about.

 

For the work I have to do, I simply can't give up the Phase system yet, nor will I until the rollout of S2 system products is clearer.

[tashley]

Tim you may have a bad copy as we discussed before . Jack seems very happy with his 28mm and his P65+. Granted F11 seems to be the case but that is very typical of extreme wide angles in MF . We have to remember that is like a 16mm in 35mm FF land and we all know about DOF which with his P65 maybe 3 stops less than 35mm.

 

Frankly mine is stellar on my P40+ of course I have a crop sensor as well. So is the S2 if you really think about it. The camera is obviously made for that size sensor whereas Hassy and Phase are not made for a certain size sensor but everything from full 645 size to smaller. That will have a affect on DOF as well.

 

Good evening Guy!

 

I know we have differing feelings on the 28 and I am 100% certain that it's great on the P40 - that's partly why I think Leica will be able to do a good 24mm on the S2. But I thought (and I really can't find the thread) that Jack said something like for critical work on the P65+ you had to go to F16, use C1 corner sharpening and maybe even crop a bit too? Granted most work is not that extremely critical so this most often won't be an issue. The other issue that occurs to me here is, where does the 28D start to run into diffraction issues? On a P65+ are you going to lose centre resolution in order to save the coners by stopping down? In any event, I have heard that adaptors might come along and maybe the 28D could be stellar on the S2 if someone can get the contacts to control the aperture to work?

 

Tim I have to disagree though on the simplicity issue . Anything in MF is just simple to operate to start with. None of these system have a ton of bells and whistles and most are single AF point or close to it and pretty much turn it on and go. Now from factor is different and like I said many times some folks like the conventional DSLR handling and I would credit that more than anything else. The S2 still has some menu finding stuff that is not convenient as well on a outside button like EV control and such.

 

Another 'agree to differ' point I'm afraid... the Phase system us undoubtedly extremely good but... two 'on' buttons before you can take a shot? Three chargers to travel with? Those issues don't bother you but one year on, they still bug me! And the S2 menu system has if anything really grown on me. With one serious exception: the zoom and scroll system in review mode is b****y annoying!

 

Tim honestly I know you like your S2 as you should it is what is making you happy but have to say sounds like your defending it as well.

 

Yes I am defending it. It's a very good camera indeed and I have used it more than most people so, despite having less general experience than many people, I'm still in at least a reasonable position to do so!

 

Have to say one thing about gear never fall in love with it at least from my seat anything I smell that might be better I will jump on it, there really is NO devotion to anything on the gear front. Need to find what works for you and has the LEAST amount of compromises because every system out there is a compromise. I liked the S2 but I can think of another 100 reasons how to make it better just like i can with any Hassy , Phase , Nikon or Canon. To often I hear people discredit other systems to help justify what one owns. It honestly makes no sense but makes folks feel good. Now how many times have we all seen that one on our forum readings. Kind of scary if you think about it and as a owner of a forum I see it everyday.

 

I think people do that a lot too. You don't see me selling my Phase gear, for now at least, because despite the aspects of it that I dislike, it does some things that the S2 just can't, period, and it does them very well!

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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2 chargers but there is something to be said about double AA batteries but I agree it would be nice to have have one battery like the Hassy and S2 for sure. Certainly a compromise.

 

Chargers are for AA which you don't have to have but use regular batteries (Throw aways)

 

Back charger for sure but they are standard video camera batteries, so easily to buy and you can get a 1 battery charger for 20 dollars for travel if you wanted to go that route.

 

 

The 28mm Tim I have not really seen a diffraction issue that was really evident at F16 but I would have to test for this for sure to be more accurate.

 

The adapter thing I just don't see it happening outside a V lens. But hey i could be wrong for sure. Problem is Leica needs a lot of S2 out there for a company like Novoflex to consider doing it.

[tashley]

2 chargers but there is something to be said about double AA batteries but I agree it would be nice to have have one battery like the Hassy and S2 for sure. Certainly a compromise.

 

Chargers are for AA which you don't have to have but use regular batteries (Throw aways)

 

Back charger for sure but they are standard video camera batteries, so easily to buy and you can get a 1 battery charger for 20 dollars for travel if you wanted to go that route.

 

 

The 28mm Tim I have not really seen a diffraction issue that was really evident at F16 but I would have to test for this for sure to be more accurate.

 

The adapter thing I just don't see it happening outside a V lens. But hey i could be wrong for sure. Problem is Leica needs a lot of S2 out there for a company like Novoflex to consider doing it.

 

Interesting - that implies that you have a charger than can do 6 AA rechargeables at once? I looked for one but ended up with a four and a two. What brand's yours, I'll look one out, it would be handy for travel for sure. What I'd really like is a Metz-style one where you don't even take the batteries out of the holder, you just charge 'em all up at once.

 

Air travel with gear is getting to be such an issue that lots of little space and weight savings really add up to an easier life...

 

I'll try to look at the MTF's for the 28D and I agree the adaptor thing may be wishful thinking (though I can see an argument for Leica themselves to make one) but I was really just trying to say that until it's really clear that no one will make one, I'll hold on to at least my 28D and my Hartblei just in case. Thereafter, Jack has first dibs on the Hartblei!

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Tim correction . Jacks test was at F16 Phase/Mamiya 28mm on full-frame - The GetDPI Photography Forums

 

I have a 8 AA charger actually . Here Tim . They have a bunch and sell some good batteries as well MAHA MH-C801D AA - AAA Battery ChargerDELUXE 8 Cell Professi..

[tashley]

Tim correction . Jacks test was at F16 Phase/Mamiya 28mm on full-frame - The GetDPI Photography Forums

 

I have a 8 AA charger actually . Here Tim . They have a bunch and sell some good batteries as well MAHA MH-C801D AA - AAA Battery ChargerDELUXE 8 Cell Professi..

 

Cool, thanks Guy, that actually looks really neat. I will search one out!

[AlanG]

I thought of a way to simulate a test of a 24x35mm 46megapixel sensor using what is available today.

 

The Leica S2 format and 70mm lens would be equivalent in angle of view as a 56mm focal length on a 24x36mm sensor.

 

A Canon 7D has an 18 megapixel sensor that has an area of 332 sq mm.

A 24x36 sensor has an area of 864 sq mm.

Therefore a 24x36mm sensor that has the same pixel density of the 7D's sensor would have 46 megapixels.

 

So...

 

Take an APS format Canon 7D and shoot with a 56mm focal length lens. (Perhaps a 50mm and moving an specific amount closer will work.) This will provide a center area that would be the same resolution for that area as if it were used on a 24x36mm sensor that has 46 megapixels - which would of course show a wider field of view.

 

Compare it to the same image shot with an S2 and 70mm lens.

 

This won't be able to show what will happen at the edge of the frame but at least we could see if future higher pixel count 24x36 sensors have a chance to equal the S2's resolution.

 

I don't have either camera so I can't test it. And I don't see why a 24x36 40+ meg sensor is not possible any time that Canon or Sony wants to make one. At least a simple test like this will give an idea of it would be worth it.

[gogopix]

 

The 28mm Tim I have not really seen a diffraction issue that was really evident at F16 but I would have to test for this for sure to be more accurate.

 

The adapter thing I just don't see it happening outside a V lens. But hey i could be wrong for sure. Problem is Leica needs a lot of S2 out there for a company like Novoflex to consider doing it.

 

On the 28mm, I guess I agree a bit with each of you; Tim, from what others have commented, the (M) 28mm REALLY pushes the limit of the 645 format and has had some copy variability issues. On top of that 100% on a P65+ is more lpm that we ever thought we would contend with. But I don't see diffraction as the issue. basically, it is compromise in the lens design. [That said, I must agree with Alan: I think the whole purpose of a wide lens is to go WIDE. to use it on a cropped sensor doesn't hack it. Think back on the MASSIVE hue and cry about the cropped sensor of the DMR and the M8. ]

I also would like to point out that, except for the VERY expensive 28mm hassey, (and SK and rodey's) the widest attempted was the HB 30mm V, a fisheye perspective, and the formidable 35mm... dare I say it... Contax 645 :-)

 

 

On the adapter, Guy, I HOPE they have one for V lenses; it is the deal breaker if they don't. It is pretty simple to do. Just get the accurate S2 registration distance, and an S2 and V mount; slip some aluminium in between. Works all the time, UNLESS Leica does something that prevents the shutter from triggering without some secret handshake from the lens (and they might-I think Conon and or Nikon did)

 

BTW, I am happy to see some real discussion of the S2, esp from two people who have tested it! (Tim, Guy, thanks for sharing... But I must say, after being sold by Guy some years ago on the DMR NO regrets, and David Farkas on the M8, I am on the fence with the S2. Maybe Tim, you will be my "S2 Hero".)

 

best regards

Victor

[c6gowin]

Tim, I want to thank your for posting your experience with the S2. As far as I can tell, you are the main person who regularly posts about their experience with the S2. I know there are several new S2 owners in the US now, but none seem to regular posters on the forums or don't have enough experience with the camera to post about it.

[Gentleman Villain]

Tim, I want to thank your for posting your experience with the S2. As far as I can tell, you are the main person who regularly posts about their experience with the S2. I know there are several new S2 owners in the US now, but none seem to regular posters on the forums or don't have enough experience with the camera to post about it.

 

1000% agreement

 

Tim's contributions are among the highlights of this forum.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

On the 28mm, I guess I agree a bit with each of you; Tim, from what others have commented, the (M) 28mm REALLY pushes the limit of the 645 format and has had some copy variability issues. On top of that 100% on a P65+ is more lpm that we ever thought we would contend with. But I don't see diffraction as the issue. basically, it is compromise in the lens design. [That said, I must agree with Alan: I think the whole purpose of a wide lens is to go WIDE. to use it on a cropped sensor doesn't hack it. Think back on the MASSIVE hue and cry about the cropped sensor of the DMR and the M8. ]

I also would like to point out that, except for the VERY expensive 28mm hassey, (and SK and rodey's) the widest attempted was the HB 30mm V, a fisheye perspective, and the formidable 35mm... dare I say it... Contax 645 :-)

 

 

On the adapter, Guy, I HOPE they have one for V lenses; it is the deal breaker if they don't. It is pretty simple to do. Just get the accurate S2 registration distance, and an S2 and V mount; slip some aluminium in between. Works all the time, UNLESS Leica does something that prevents the shutter from triggering without some secret handshake from the lens (and they might-I think Conon and or Nikon did)

 

BTW, I am happy to see some real discussion of the S2, esp from two people who have tested it! (Tim, Guy, thanks for sharing... But I must say, after being sold by Guy some years ago on the DMR NO regrets, and David Farkas on the M8, I am on the fence with the S2. Maybe Tim, you will be my "S2 Hero".)

 

best regards

Victor

 

 

Well now Hassy dropped a bomb today with basically the same sensor as the S2 actually my bet it is identical but have to see how that shakes out when more info comes out and looks to be the cheapest way in on the 40 mpx arena. Ouch maybe less than 20k with lens . I will have numbers tomorrow but the field here just got very crowed and I knew it would happen. Leica really needs to get those lenses out for their sake. I know the styling is different but if your saving a lot of cash on Hassy which seems to be a 9k difference or so and a FULL system in place. Lot to think about for sure. I like the S2 but survival is needed here. Sorry but not everyone has money to burn. Now there are 3 to pick from. Even Phase better watch it.

[Gentleman Villain]

C'mon now. Hasselblad's announcement completely fell flat. If the only thing H can do is play with pricing on an already out-dated system then there is nowhere else for them to go but down.

[stephengilbert]

"Hasselblad's announcement completely fell flat?"

 

Really? And this pronouncement is based on what, exactly? Your desire for an S2?

[jonoslack]

 

Tim honestly I know you like your S2 as you should it is what is making you happy but have to say sounds like your defending it as well. Have to say one thing about gear never fall in love with it at least from my seat anything I smell that might be better I will jump on it, there really is NO devotion to anything on the gear front. Need to find what works for you and has the LEAST amount of compromises because every system out there is a compromise. I liked the S2 but I can think of another 100 reasons how to make it better just like i can with any Hassy , Phase , Nikon or Canon. To often I hear people discredit other systems to help justify what one owns. It honestly makes no sense but makes folks feel good. Now how many times have we all seen that one on our forum readings. Kind of scary if you think about it and as a owner of a forum I see it everyday.

 

Hi Guy

I hope you're well -

 

I've only spent an hour or so with an S2, and don't use other MF gear, so I have no worthwhile opinion about it's qualities. However, I do know Tim extremely well from numerous forums over several years. The idea that he would be 'defending' gear is completely and patently ludicrous.

 

He got immense stick on the GedDPI forum criticising various pieces of kit, in every case I've seen he turned out to be right about the problem. It was always others who turned out to be mistaken (you might criticise him for being too rigorous . . . some people certainly have).

 

He almost singlehandedly got the internet community to accept that the 35mm summilux asph suffered from serious focus shift, against the furious screams of almost all other owners.

 

He hasn't sold his other MF gear, so he isn't in some kind of financial bind to qualify his purchase of an S2.

 

He has, for years, been testing rigorously and biting the heels of manufacturers when kit does not do what it says 'on the tin'. Leica have been at the receiving end of this as much as others.

 

The idea that he would suddenly 'go soft' on the S2 seems to me to be pretty bizarre.

 

Right - Now I'll go back to the M9 forum and getDPI . . . see ya there

[okram]

I thought of a way to simulate a test of a 24x35mm 46megapixel sensor using what is available today.

 

The Leica S2 format and 70mm lens would be equivalent in angle of view as a 56mm focal length on a 24x36mm sensor.

 

A Canon 7D has an 18 megapixel sensor that has an area of 332 sq mm.

A 24x36 sensor has an area of 864 sq mm.

Therefore a 24x36mm sensor that has the same pixel density of the 7D's sensor would have 46 megapixels.

 

So...

 

Take an APS format Canon 7D and shoot with a 56mm focal length lens. (Perhaps a 50mm and moving an specific amount closer will work.) This will provide a center area that would be the same resolution for that area as if it were used on a 24x36mm sensor that has 46 megapixels - which would of course show a wider field of view.

 

Compare it to the same image shot with an S2 and 70mm lens.

 

This won't be able to show what will happen at the edge of the frame but at least we could see if future higher pixel count 24x36 sensors have a chance to equal the S2's resolution.

 

I don't have either camera so I can't test it. And I don't see why a 24x36 40+ meg sensor is not possible any time that Canon or Sony wants to make one. At least a simple test like this will give an idea of it would be worth it.

 

 

Imagine focusing that.

 

The Online Photographer: Focusing Follies

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[AlanG]

Imagine focusing that.

 

The Online Photographer: Focusing Follies

 

The higher the resolution the more critical focusing becomes - if you want to get the most out of the camera. That would apply with 35mm and MF, although the shorter lenses on 35mm should give them an advantage. This is why live view can be so useful.