Guest guy_mancuso Posted January 20, 2010 Share #21 Posted January 20, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Tim it's possible it is just blending out in other frames and could be there the whole time just invisible to the naked eye and it may have to do with a certain color or matrix of colors. Very strange indeed but certainly looks outside the box of processing and all to do with the sensor itself. I personally would return it or send it in. Tim is this a final version production cam or one of the demo units floating around. The one I tested this did not come up and I think it is the same unit as Marc's , Capture Integrations and a few other folks that shot it here in the states. I had some artifacts but it was C1 but it was random in pattern not a straight vertical line like this. I dod have that posted on my review i believe if you need to see that I can pull it up in the one shot of the blonde in her hair. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 20, 2010 Posted January 20, 2010 Hi Guest guy_mancuso, Take a look here S2 as a vacation point'n'shoot (gallery). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
tashley Posted January 20, 2010 Author Share #22 Posted January 20, 2010 Tim it's possible it is just blending out in other frames and could be there the whole time just invisible to the naked eye and it may have to do with a certain color or matrix of colors. Very strange indeed but certainly looks outside the box of processing and all to do with the sensor itself. I personally would return it or send it in. Tim is this a final version production cam or one of the demo units floating around. The one I tested this did not come up and I think it is the same unit as Marc's , Capture Integrations and a few other folks that shot it here in the states. I had some artifacts but it was C1 but it was random in pattern not a straight vertical line like this. I dod have that posted on my review i believe if you need to see that I can pull it up in the one shot of the blonde in her hair. Guy, I agree that it's most likely always there but so effectively masked by subject matter that it's impossible to see. I took a load of frames, applied the same very tight crop to all of them to isolate where it would occur, and found it eventually in many but not all frames. However there were frames where I really could not see it and yet which, on revisiting with a fresh eye, did turn out to have it. I have sent examples to Leica today and await their response with interest but I will certainly not want to accept it as it currently is. Let's see! best T Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted January 21, 2010 Author Share #23 Posted January 21, 2010 Guy, sorry, forgot to add that this was the first production unit to ship to the UK and that I paid retail for it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted January 21, 2010 Share #24 Posted January 21, 2010 Thanks Tim. You know me the trouble shooter trying to get things straight. I agree let's wait on word from Leica but it needs to be corrected for sure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted January 21, 2010 Author Share #25 Posted January 21, 2010 I heard back very promptly. It's a different type of column thing and I'll have a replacement unit before I can say 'replacement unit'... but in the meantime it's a beautiful day and I'm off to take some photos! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted January 21, 2010 Share #26 Posted January 21, 2010 Good news Tim. I'm sure this thread helped. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
h00ligan Posted January 24, 2010 Share #27 Posted January 24, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Good news they are squaring you away! Bad news that leica are (seemingly) having quality control issues on top of delay issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted January 24, 2010 Share #28 Posted January 24, 2010 Good news they are squaring you away! Bad news that leica are (seemingly) having quality control issues on top of delay issues. so tim, not only mine was faulty.....----((((((. i am looking forward to the next level of leica S2 sensor issues. i ran away from it and am very happy about my decision. peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted January 24, 2010 Author Share #29 Posted January 24, 2010 so tim, not only mine was faulty.....----((((((. i am looking forward to the next level of leica S2 sensor issues. i ran away from it and am very happy about my decision. peter Hi Peter I'm a bit confused now so bear with me: I thought you returned yours because you felt the darker mid tones showed unacceptable noise and that you felt that this characteristic was endemic to the sensor in general, as it were - whereas now it sounds as if you felt it was a fault with your particular unit? Not quite sure where you're coming from here... but would be interested to know! Best Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted January 24, 2010 Share #30 Posted January 24, 2010 tim, i gave mine back precisely because of the midtone noise. i cannot be 100% certain whether this was a fault of my unit only but i suspect no.....from what i have seen on the internet and from communications with others who tried the S2 it seems to be an intrinsic property of the S2 sensor/circuitry. after this i did take a closer looks at the midtone noise in M9 RAWs and they seem better than what i saw from the (my) S2. but even the M9 files are very inelastic in PP, pulling up the dark tones immediately creates a lot of noise (something i did NOT do with the S2 files i have posted back when i had the body). CMOS files (Nikon) are much more forgiving in my experience. anyway, i could have gotten a replacement S2 unit but did not want to bother. and now i am happy about my decision. no way i return to the S2. yesterday's sensor tech in tomorrow's slim and tidy package. just not enough nevertheless. hope leica goes CMOS in the M10. and focus confirmation. for once i agree completely with MR. peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted January 24, 2010 Author Share #31 Posted January 24, 2010 All clear now, thanks Peter! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted January 24, 2010 Share #32 Posted January 24, 2010 no way i return to the S2. yesterday's sensor tech in tomorrow's slim and tidy package. just not enough nevertheless. peter Peter, Interesting comment. From your previous posts I thought you were an owner of the H3DII-50. The Hassy uses the same, latest generation 6um sensor from Kodak. You also have a P65+ from my understanding, which uses 6um pixel tech from DALSA and was designed/released in the same timeframe as the Kodak sensor. There are no CMOS sensors being used in any MFD camera. You tried the S2 and it wasn't for you. That's fine. But to say that the S2 uses yesterdays sensor tech is a bit misguided. In fact, the M9, which you seem to prefer (I love the M9 as well) uses the more mature (read: older) 6.8um sensor tech found in cameras like the H3DII-39 and P45+ (and M8). The newer 6um architecture is about 4-5 years newer tech. The M9, as well as the other cameras I listed here all still make great images, even with "yesterdays" tech. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted January 25, 2010 Share #33 Posted January 25, 2010 david, correct, i have an H3DII-50. what is it, 3 year old sensor tech? it works perfectly at base iso 50, very good at 100, then deteriorates fast. great lenses (as good or better than what i have seen from the S lenses), rather complete system, suboptimal body design, heavy, bad ergonomics , certainly worse than the S2 in that respect. P65+: obviously best res in the market, best overall IQ, great pixel pinning (how did leica miss out on that?????). we use it on our alpas for getting shift and best lens quality. i have no experience with phase/mamiya lenses but what i hear they are equal to the H offerings. the M9....tough call. i love the light weight system and the M lenses, would like to see MR's ideas implemented in an M10. its sensor? soso....as i said, very inelastic files..... nowadays technology: for example nikon D3s. totally different ballpark, not only at high isos but also at base. i am amazed by the quality output it produces. i have repeatedly stated that the MF competitors (i do include leica in that list now) are like dinosaurs in comparisms to the DSLR leaders nikon, canon, sony. they sell us the 'waste' (sensor technology) of defense and other big game contractors for a lot of money but have not entered this century's technology in many ways (live view, multiple AF sensors, VR, video....). until now MF was needed for very large prints (that is why we use it still) and it was used by some people who snob DSLRs without really understanding them... but the next gen of DSLRs will also get the MPs right. note that the D3x already beats all the MF sensors in dynamic range! then only the stereotype 'CCD' beats 'CMOS' will be left. and (i take an intellectual loan here from MR) ostrich leather CCD-based leica Mxxx's . other than that micro 4/3 will close in on the M system from below. another tough competition. peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted January 25, 2010 Share #34 Posted January 25, 2010 Interesting perspective, Peter. Thank you for your feedback. I checked on the 6um Kodak sensor tech. It is 18-month-old tech - July, 2008. Kodak fits 50MP into dynamic range: Digital Photography Review Tthe same age as the DALSA 6um, in fact, to the month. Image Sensors World: DALSA Delivers 60MP Medium Format CCD David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted January 26, 2010 Share #35 Posted January 26, 2010 david, well, then the technology is at leat 2 years old. the only real innovation that came in MF recently (except smaller pixel pitches) is pixel binning and leica slept well through it. the S2 could have been it, with pixel binning, multiple focus points, VR, live view. but i understand that leica does not have the financial resources for that. peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
t024484 Posted January 26, 2010 Share #36 Posted January 26, 2010 david, well, then the technology is at leat 2 years old. the only real innovation that came in MF recently (except smaller pixel pitches) is pixel binning and leica slept well through it. Are you sure, Leica does not seem a company of sleepers to me. If for some reason you want to reduce resolution, you can get the same result by using Photoshop and without losing the original high res picture. the S2 could have been it, with pixel binning, multiple focus points, VR, live view. but i understand that leica does not have the financial resources for that. peter Reading this gives the impression that Leica did everything wrong. I fully disagree. They came with a host of new ideas despite their restricted budgets. Hans Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted January 26, 2010 Share #37 Posted January 26, 2010 Hans may want to read this for the reasoning behind pixel binning. It's also to push data much faster through camera and processing for speed when a gig does not require a full res. file. I do this all the time and processing 40mpx files when you are in the hundreds is just not something you want to do on deadline or staying up all night processing files for a show in the morning. I have the option handy to make a switch at anytime to go large or pixel down. BTW this was on Leica plans but with the fallout with Phase it went away since this is not only camera produced but also something built into C1 in the software. Now the S2 does have the option to shoot jpegs as well but again it's a jpeg done in camera so you lose the Raw control but it is handy for some folks. I did not get into the jpegs on my initial review on the S2. We need to remember also the S2 raw file is 70mpx DNG which is very large and I am still hoping Leica will use loseless compression on it for at least a fast buffer which the S2 hits within 6 shots or so and also this would speed up processing times up by a large margin and not to mention disk space. That's a lot of data to push through a computer if they are 70 mgs each and you shoot 600 in a job. They really need to look at this in the next firmware. Here is a good idea of the abilities of Pixel binning also i should add a very important aspect is you gain high ISO's as well as you will see . Leica did mention to me that they do want to do this at some point. I personally thing Pixel binning is a excellent idea and i am certainly taking advantage of it and a good reason i went for the P40+. Phase One DF, P40+ and Sensor Plus Combination - The GetDPI Photography Forums Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted January 26, 2010 Share #38 Posted January 26, 2010 david, well, then the technology is at leat 2 years old. the only real innovation that came in MF recently (except smaller pixel pitches) is pixel binning and leica slept well through it. the S2 could have been it, with pixel binning, multiple focus points, VR, live view. but i understand that leica does not have the financial resources for that. peter Pixel binning was planned, actually. The early units shown at Photokina had a 9.3MP binning mode. This was taken out (for now) because of quality concerns. The output was not up to Leica's expected quality levels. So, they removed it for release and are working on improving the algorithms. If you read my interview with Dr. Volker Zimmer (in my S2 review), you'd see that Leica is exploring other options to extend high ISO performance without decreasing resolution. Dr. Zimmer is in charge of digital technology at Leica and his team is responsible for the hardware and firmware development of the S2. Conjecture is always easy in these cases and makes for some interesting reading, but it does not give all the facts. As you know, live view is impossible with CCDs due to the readout speed and heat generated. Which MF camera offers live view on the camera's LCD? I agree with you on multiple focus points. This would have been nice. Although, I find the S2's single AF point to be more accurate and repeatable than most Nikon and Canons I have used (no spurious AF events). Limited resources? Leica invested in the neighborhood of 35 million Euro to develop the S2. When Hasselblad introduced the H1 ten years ago, they spent 12 million. While the other MF companies are private and don't publish financial data, some basic math might give you an indication that Leica's R&D budget is similar to some companies' gross revenue. Hardly limited resources. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted January 26, 2010 Share #39 Posted January 26, 2010 @Dave, Thanks for posting about the financing, that's very interesting. Just one mans' opinion, but I think features like Live View and fast tethered shooting will become more important with the release of tilt/shift lenses and other system accessories geared more towards architectural and product shooters. So it's not such a big deal to be missing those things right now that the system is courting fashion/portrait type shooters but might be nice features to add in the future as the system expands to other realms. I'm sure Leica already knows that. BTW - The phrase "spurious AF event" always cracks me up. For some reason, it 's as much fun to say as Janet Jackson's superbowl ''wardrobe malfunction" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted January 27, 2010 Share #40 Posted January 27, 2010 As you know, live view is impossible with CCDs due to the readout speed and heat generated. Which MF camera offers live view on the camera's LCD? I agree with you on multiple focus points. This would have been nice. Although, I find the S2's single AF point to be more accurate and repeatable than most Nikon and Canons I have used (no spurious AF events). Limited resources? Leica invested in the neighborhood of 35 million Euro to develop the S2. When Hasselblad introduced the H1 ten years ago, they spent 12 million. While the other MF companies are private and don't publish financial data, some basic math might give you an indication that Leica's R&D budget is similar to some companies' gross revenue. Hardly limited resources. David david, my argument was that the whole MF sector needs innovation urgently. CCDs are very limited in the possibilities they give and will have to be replaced by CMOS very soon. even leica knows that. as far as your AF omments go....my nikon AF (D3x, D3s) runs circles around the MF AF (H3 and S2) in all respects, that is in speed and accuraccy. if really leica spent so much money for developing the S2 and Hasselblad so little to develop the H system then Hasselblad did a wonderful job and leica a poor one. i have to replace 'limited resources' in my statement by 'limited capabilities'. instead of bringing the badly needed innovation to the MF sector they apparently spent the money to catch up to where hasselblad, phase&mamiya have arrived a while ago. really sad. peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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