Dont get the point of the S2; could their owners enlighten me?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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In a nutshell it gives 35mm DSLR feel which is nothing wrong with that and actually maybe for some folks more a reason to go into MF. Obviously we all heard it is bulky , heavy and just to cumbersome to shoot when the subject of MF comes up and it is to a certain degree. The S2 is actually a good concept and there is a market for it in many ways but it also is nothing in a sense does anything different than others either. It does offer some features not found as well , large LCD, dual card slots and weather selling etc etc.

 

The main issue it is not putting dents in the market is price, enough lenses, rental house spread and stuff like this. Obviously a brand new system that has a lot of growth to accomplish and that just takes time. But as we have seen in the review i did it is not killing off other systems either. In many ways it is even or less than what exist today. Main problem I see that will never make this a double digit market share item is price and the economy right now. Just bad timing

[proenca]

Yes, and any old dSLR does more things than the M9 does. What was your point again?

 

Well a M9 or a M8 vs a dSLR is like comparing apples and oranges. Period.

 

Exactly because any old dSLR does things that a M8 can't, that's the reason I picked up a D2H for virtually nothing - for doing tele and macro work - which does brilliantly.

 

D2h for tele and macro and M8 for everything else.

 

The M8 or the M9 are great cameras but are not a camera that does everything : does few things and they excel at it : light, compact, superb quality for wide angle, normal and medium focal lengths. But you can't just take them to a football match and try to compare them to a 1D MKIII ( or a D2h for that matter ).

 

The M8 and the M9 did bring something new to the game; I failed to understand what the S2 does and what it brings new to the arena.. and why Leica decided to build it .. which was my point

 

But.. :

 

 

In a nutshell it gives 35mm DSLR feel which is nothing wrong with that and actually maybe for some folks more a reason to go into MF. Obviously we all heard it is bulky , heavy and just to cumbersome to shoot when the subject of MF comes up and it is to a certain degree. The S2 is actually a good concept and there is a market for it in many ways but it also is nothing in a sense does anything different than others either. It does offer some features not found as well , large LCD, dual card slots and weather selling etc etc.

 

The main issue it is not putting dents in the market is price, enough lenses, rental house spread and stuff like this. Obviously a brand new system that has a lot of growth to accomplish and that just takes time. But as we have seen in the review i did it is not killing off other systems either. In many ways it is even or less than what exist today. Main problem I see that will never make this a double digit market share item is price and the economy right now. Just bad timing

 

Thanks Guy That actually made sense...

[tashley]

Guy,

 

>>Leica needs those 3,4 and 5 lenses out today to make any dent in the market.<<

 

Agree, currently only the 70mm FP shutter is available, That is a bit like setting up a commercial photo-operation with a 501 and a 80mm, while I have shot jobs with such a combination, I suspect a lot of people would start feeling limited rather quickly, particularly considering the price of entry and there are just no asking "get me something longer" when the urge to isolate come up.

 

Right now its a $30.000 camera with a short portrait lens, and there need to be a lot of corporate and celebrity portraits in the box to pay for this.

 

I suspect we will see some defining choices later when there is a system and possible some poster-child shooters do choose S2 for campaign work etc.

 

.

 

 

Not quite true Bo, I just finished a week's vacation with the S2, 70mm fp and 180mm fp.... though I did also carry an X1 as a wide angle option until they come out with the 24mm that has me drooling! I wasn't able to get a copy of the Mammy 28 that is sharp to the corners on a P45+ (I don't think such a beast exists in fact!) so that 24mm on the S2 will be incredible...

[tashley]

Thanks for all that replied ; but still my question seems a bit on the unanswered side....

 

I'm not a pro photographer neither I was planning to buy a S2 - sort of. I thought up to recently to buy a second, high quality, high mp, slower system - MF in digital pop to my mind and started browsing refurb H2D and H3D .. and even thought about the S2.

 

But what Guy says, its pretty much what I think : its a nice camera, no doubt. Needs some extra work and refinements ? Indeed, as any new Leica digital product.... *sigh* ...

 

But truth to be told, it doesnt bring anything new to the arena - it would if it had a good high ISO performance... but from where I stand, its just a nice package rolled up in a 35mm body size... new, yes, ground breaking not exactly.

 

What what Guy said, its what I think - I dont see a pro photographer that already owns a H3D refuses a job because has to lug around its gear all day.. cheaper than buying a S2 is to rent an assistant or buy a mule...

 

My problem with the understanding of the S2 is that on top of the so-so camera abilities, it has a very very limited range of lenses. While Phase, Mamiya, Hasselblad and the such have a long array and choice of proven lenses - Leica just have a couple for the S2.. and not all available yet...

 

So it continue to puzzles me why Leica spent so much to deliver a product that apart its compactness, doesnt bring much to the arena where its going to fight - and hard, to stay alive.

 

I never though by a minute that the S2 would be a mass product - hell no. Sure, its a niche product and directed to ... someone, but who ? Who were they thinking ? Seems like MF users but what advantage does it bring to an existing MF user to the point of him ditching his system and go for the S2 ? Weight alone ? hmmm

 

My 2 cents worth, having spent the past year shooting a Phase P45+ system and the past week carrying an S2 and two lenses around five Caribbean islands including hikes, tender rides, airports, blah blah, is that I am afraid to say you could not be more wrong! What the S2 brings to the party is the ability to do, easily and with minimum packing and less weight and without a tripod, what I got fed up trying to do with a 'traditional' MF system which is to take incredibly high quality and high resolution shots of things I never planned on finding, had not set up in advance and didn't need an assistant, mule or Charles Atlas muscles to get my camera gear to.

 

The S2 is not perfect. It is, however, bloody good.

 

Tim

[proenca]

things I never planned on finding, had not set up in advance and didn't need an assistant, mule or Charles Atlas muscles to get my camera gear to.

 

The S2 is not perfect. It is, however, bloody good.

 

Tim

 

Thanks for your input ... its always nice to have a perspective from people who actually use it, even it they dont have mules

[markowich]

My 2 cents worth, having spent the past year shooting a Phase P45+ system and the past week carrying an S2 and two lenses around five Caribbean islands including hikes, tender rides, airports, blah blah, is that I am afraid to say you could not be more wrong! What the S2 brings to the party is the ability to do, easily and with minimum packing and less weight and without a tripod, what I got fed up trying to do with a 'traditional' MF system which is to take incredibly high quality and high resolution shots of things I never planned on finding, had not set up in advance and didn't need an assistant, mule or Charles Atlas muscles to get my camera gear to.

 

The S2 is not perfect. It is, however, bloody good.

 

Tim

 

well tim, no wonder that a 2 lens system is lightweight----)))

peter

[mwilliamsphotography]

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Not an owner so I can't enlighten ... but I can relate my impressions since I did get to shoot with a S2 for 1/2 day without interruption in mid November.

 

More importantly, I have had the 170 files I shot on my computer for almost 2 months now. Lots of time to play and figure out better ways to process ... any new camera takes some getting used to when it comes to processing. And as Guy mentioned, there is a real need for some more sophisticated S2 profiles.

 

I currently have a H3D-II/39 and most of the lenses. The IQ is very, very good from this camera. The S2 files look different. The S2 images also look different from the Leaf 75S I previously used on a Mamiya AFD-II even using adapted Zeiss FE lenses. S2 pics look different from the images my pal shoots with a Phase One back on a Contax 645. I see that difference in the shots done by Guy and Jack for their S2 test.

 

This difference that I see is one that I see in other S2 samples posted. Better or worse? That's in the eye of the beholder. However, my clear impression is that the S2 images look different.

 

The form factor is nice, but a modular MFD camera breaks down for very efficient packing, and the lenses are the same size/weight. Frankly, these are image making machines and those differences, while important for handling, etc., mean less to me than what the images look like. Meaning I would not buy into a system just for those utilitarian reasons as seductive as they may seem.

 

Personally, based on using quite a few different systems, I do not think all these MFD cameras are homogenous in the look they deliver. No matter how hard people try to level the playing field they still exert their own character from the unique combination of the back, camera, lenses and processing engines/software/profiles.

 

IMHO, what the S2 brings to the party is a fresh pictorial look ... it's your call wether you like it or not, or wether it fits your approach or vision or not.

 

IF (BIG IF $$$$$) I bought a S2, it wouldn't be as a replacement for the Hasselblad ... at least initially : -) ... it'd be because it fit a vision or approach with the different look it delivers ... which has been growing on me after not being sure I initially liked it or not . Now I love it.

 

Not having the other lenses ready, nor knowing what they bring to the party is TBD. Personality type A impatience is not a virtue when it comes to MFD. The H4D/60 looms as the candidate for my cash ... but I've no idea what those files will look like, so time will tell.

[alexc]

 

 

I just dont see who is going to buy a S2 - Hassy / Phase One / etc MF users are not going to ditch their lenses and proven bodies for a S2, specially when 1 or 2 year old backs have the same qualities of a S2.. and I dont see that the whole MF crowd were crying for a 35mm body with weather sealing and the S2 is the answer to everyone prayers...

 

So I do fear for Leica : millions went down the drain to R&D the S2 and the products really seems that doesnt do much ... so what takes ?

 

 

I think you are wrong, Leica will sell a lot of cameras throughout the world. The demand will be much more than they can produce. There are many people who will buy it. This is one of them.

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[adan]

Does anyone on this forum really have the vaguest idea of what the global need may be - for any particular camera?

 

Anyone know 200 working photographers in all/any of these places: Russia, China, Japan, South Africa, Singapore, Saudi Arabia, Poland, Chile, Brazil? (I could go on and on...)

 

I think too many people look at what a) they want and what 5-10 "pro" acquaintances in their provincial neighborhood want - and somehow think that actually means anything.

 

And it doesn't. It is one grain of sand on a mile-long beach.

 

Even folks who are really well-connected, and know what they're doing, like Guy and Dave Farkas, probably can't put their finger on the "pulse" of more than 1/10,000th of the shooters in the world.

 

I just leave that as a cautionary note...

[Jeff S]

I just read Sean's review on the S2 posted today. While I'm not in the market, I am nonetheless curious about the camera and its uses.

 

As a former view camera user, I can relate to Sean's desire to use the camera with its eventual tilt-shift lenses. I can imagine the camera as a lightweight digital replacement for a field view camera, albeit without all the movements, and at an extreme price.

 

I suppose one could already do this with Canon and Nikon systems, some of the latter weather sealed, but these offer presumed lower quality lenses and reduced camera sensor size and resolution...for now.

 

Jeff

[tobey bilek]

I am sure it is a first class SLR with a big sensor and is made for large prints which med format people like to sell because they make a lot of money on a 30x40 family portrait.

 

All you need is $30,000 to get started and they another 50 to 100 to finish it off.

 

A few sucessful pros will go for it if they are getting unhappy with Hasselblad or Leif or Mamiya.

Would you invest in it while taking a guess at Leicas finances? This is one reason I do not own a M9. It is not like the corner rapairman can fix it.

[proenca]

Does anyone on this forum really have the vaguest idea of what the global need may be - for any particular camera?

 

Anyone know 200 working photographers in all/any of these places: Russia, China, Japan, South Africa, Singapore, Saudi Arabia, Poland, Chile, Brazil? (I could go on and on...)

 

I think too many people look at what a) they want and what 5-10 "pro" acquaintances in their provincial neighborhood want - and somehow think that actually means anything.

 

And it doesn't. It is one grain of sand on a mile-long beach.

 

Even folks who are really well-connected, and know what they're doing, like Guy and Dave Farkas, probably can't put their finger on the "pulse" of more than 1/10,000th of the shooters in the world.

 

I just leave that as a cautionary note...

 

Sorry Adan, think your a bit on the pompous side here ...

 

No I surely havent an idea what what 1/1.000.000.000 of the pro shooters out there want.. and well, I lived in London for the last years so that's quite a provincial neighborhood

 

Still...

 

I dont understand the market for the S2, to be honest I'm hardly in the market for one but nonetheless, just like Jeff, I'm quite curious about it.

 

And to be honest, I didnt know the market and people like Guy and the like, who came here at the thread and explain, showed me a good viewpoint.

 

If I dont ask, I will never get the answers... I started my question with an educated guess from what I read from other forums ( pro photographer forums ) and what I see most of the pro's saying ( that the S2 adds very little to the MF world ) hence I decided to ask the question.

[proenca]

And just add, I will refuse to touch a S2...

 

Last time I remember that I went to a shop, saw this little camera that the salesmen introduced me to and to a system that I hardly new, and couple of weeks later I was selling my dSLR gear for Leica lenses.

 

After that, when I think about Leica I just remember Dante's Inferno quote "Abandon all hope all who enter here " .... where "hope" can be replaced with "credit cards"

[Guest guy_mancuso]

"Abandon all hope all who enter here " .... where "hope" can be replaced with "credit cards"

 

 

LOL. So true

 

The MF is small compared to the 35mm,P&S and such out there. We truly maybe represent less than 4 percent if not much less of the total market in camera sales. If I was actually pressed to guess I would say 50k MF shooters now all the OEM's maybe jumping for joy for a number like that, not sure but we really are a small group and maybe the only true way to know is the sales numbers which very few give out. If I had to put that in most to least sales I would say Hassy, Phase, Leaf, Sinar than Leica obviously being last in this category since it is just starting to hit the streets. Interesting thing here is Leaf was bought by Phase and Sinar has it's own issues and not sure what there status is these days but very weak for sure lately. So really all that really remains to the mainstream is Hassy and Phase with Leica I would consider a niche in the MF world at least at this time and survival in it is in the air. Just too early to see where the reality is on real sales not hyperbole with pre-orders which many times don't get filled. I don't consider anything until a check is actually written. LOL

I run my business as the check clears, than I tell my wife I actually made some money. LOL

[LeicaS2]

Imagine you are a billionare. And thAt you like cameras. So you buy Leica and decide to bring out some new cameras. Hey, you can wait years to make a profit, it's like someone buying a baseball team, you do it for your own enjoyment, and figure in yen years you will get more than your money back. What would you do first? Make great digital M cameras, and some cool lenses for it. What next? Why bother with an R, when you have always had to compete with Canon and Nikon in slr land. Why not make an R with a bigger sensor? So he did. He has said he can financially survive five years to make an impact. So he rolls out lenses on his schedule. Early adopters don't get as many lenses as they like, sorry. He has already usurped Hassy in one leap, no one in fashion was using P65+ anyway. The S2 will be a good platform for the lenses.

The S3 will be better, but the lens investment will be legacy. Be patient, they man has vision, money, and staying power. Thank goodness he liked cameras more than buying an F1 team.

[adan]

Proenca - as I said, just a precautionary note. Keep the grains of salt handy when seeking info on the web. But that doesn't mean "don't ask."

 

Even the most cosmopolitan of cities can be provincial in outlook - witness the "New Yorker's view of the world" as depicted in this famous magazine cover: http://www.magazine.org/ASSETS/DB8AB50D9EAA4D1A977E2EC55E7C6378/4.jpg

 

The S2 is probably not even aimed at a niche - more like the "crevice" between "35mm" and "MF".

[mwilliamsphotography]

Come on folks, saying this camera adds nothing to the MF world is withholding credit where credit is due.

 

It may not best ALL Medium Format Digital systems in resolution & applications, and it may not best ALL applications & attributes 35mm DSLRs ... however it creates a NEW option that ... A) released the 35mm DSLR platform from the restrictions of the film gate size ... and improved on the size, handling aspects and weather sealing of most Medium Format systems.

 

Not to mention bringing some renowned optical expertise to the party ... now with AF to boot.

 

In a changing and challenging world of photography, there are some photographers who do not need all the things that a 35mm DSLR system can do, nor need all the things that a MFD system can do. ... but they DO need some attributes from both.

 

Here is an exercise I published in a photo.net article on gear recently: I looked at the exif info in Bridge CS4 from thousands of my images to see how I was really shooting (ISOs, Shutter Speeds, focal length/apertures, and with what gear/lenses). This was incredibly revealing compared to what I thought I needed. I was lugging around gear I didn't need, with attributes I never used ... all of which cost a fortune. ROI was terrible on some of the stuff.

 

So, while the S2 is quite expensive, for those with well defined photographic needs that are best filled by this S2 camera, it is a heck of a lot less expensive than buying and maintaining a separate 35mm DSLR system and a comparable MFD system ... a good percentage of which would never be used from neither.

 

Sure, this is a narrow target ... that's nothing new for Leica who has always appealed to a smaller target group of photographers.

 

-Marc

[Vieri]

My 2 cents worth, having spent the past year shooting a Phase P45+ system and the past week carrying an S2 and two lenses around five Caribbean islands including hikes, tender rides, airports, blah blah, is that I am afraid to say you could not be more wrong! What the S2 brings to the party is the ability to do, easily and with minimum packing and less weight and without a tripod, what I got fed up trying to do with a 'traditional' MF system which is to take incredibly high quality and high resolution shots of things I never planned on finding, had not set up in advance and didn't need an assistant, mule or Charles Atlas muscles to get my camera gear to.

 

The S2 is not perfect. It is, however, bloody good.

 

Tim

 

Hello Tim, how are you? First of all, thank you very much for sharing with us your impressions with the S2 (pics and all), I do appreciate it very much. Regarding your comment on portability, I got curious and checked some specs around; I came out with some interesting results:

 

S2 - 1410 gr. (including batteries);

70mm - 740 gr.

180 mm 1150 gr.

 

total weight: 3.300 gr

 

P1 645 DF - 1400 gr (including DB w/out batteries)

80 mm - 330 gr.

150 mm - 780 gr.

 

total weight: 2.510 (less 6 AA batteries)

 

adding the batteries to the P1 kit, I guess we are about even. Of course I do not doubt your impressions and results, so I am curious about what makes you feel the S2 to be lighter than the P1 kit; I guess the form factor plays a very important role here while using the cam, while of course there isn't much difference while carrying it around, I suppose (unless the S2 is more "fitting" into a camera bag, which means you can carry it with a smaller bag, which may be part of the "lighter" impression).

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Jack and I actually weighed both systems full loaded to go with the normal lenses.

 

Leica S2 -- lighter body, heavier lens -- total = 4.65 pounds; Phase One -- heavier body/back, lighter lens -- total = 5.00 pounds.

 

Here they are real world on tripods ready to shoot with L bracket on the Phase. On the S2 since nothing is made yet we used a generic RRS camera Plate. Depends on what you like as i said in the review i personally could go either way on the shape and actually like the flat bottom on the Phase setup for handheld since i can brace myself better but obviously this all comes down to what you like and what feels best in your hands. Some would say the S2 feels better since they come from the DSLR world, it's a good point and totally understand that thinking.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[wildlightphoto]

In a changing and challenging world of photography, there are some photographers who do not need all the things that a 35mm DSLR system can do, nor need all the things that a MFD system can do. ... but they DO need some attributes from both.

 

I count myself as one of these photographers. Not that I need any of this but for what I do, assuming a long lens becomes available, the S2 hits 99% of my want list with very few surplus features and the missing 1% isn't critical.